honda forza 300 - help from Italy!

[BRed]

From what I've seen, I think it would go like this.....

his 6 sliders would beat your roller/slider mix in 1/8 mile, but by 1/4 mile you would be closing fast....
at the end of 1/2 mile, you would be out in front and pulling away.

he was turning 8400 rpm at 80mph.....
my Big Ruckus is rev limited to 8500rpm and it's top speed with 3-19g sliders and 3-15G rollers is 84mph @8300rpm.

It will be an interesting test!

on the 24x18 Helix sliders, the first test will be using all 6 24x18 sliders.....I ordered 20G for versatility.
in theory, their extra .5mm of height should lower their rpm at all speeds, point for point down the curve.
If the Forza can make the power to handle them, taller weights (taller gearing) should give a much faster 1/4 mile time, hopefully without the rapid gain in rpm.

[robertinino]

The test sound fantastic. I look forward to the result!
......at the end of 1/2 mile, you would be out in front and pulling away............ that's what I likeee!!
One more question, in the mix configuration 3 dr pulley sliders 20 gr end 3 rollers 15 gr. What's happening if you change 3 rollers 15 gr with 3 sliders dr pulley 15 gr? Perhaps you told me, but I received so many information in this period that I'll became an expert!!

I Hope in your help when I 'll star to open the variator for change rollers. Can I do it without torque wrench? What I use to hold the variator while I'll open? The rollers/sliders and the variator must be lubricated with silicon spray (w40) or graphite and perhaps before clean with polish?

ciao
R

[BRed]

if you mix two different weights of sliders, you still get a curve that looks like sliders....rapidly climbing rpm

but sliders are very linear as to their rpm/weight ratio.....
you can easily target a specific rpm shiftpoint with sliders and hit it reliably.

rollers are not linear.....
they flatten their curve, then make incremental jumps of about 600-800 rpm and start again as you go lighter....
there are certain shiftpoint rpm that are almost impossible to hit with any accuracy or repeatability using only rollers.


to do it right the first time, you should have a variator tool (it provides leverage to prevent rotation) and a 100ft.lb. torque wrench.

If you had done it before (or know someone who has) you can use an impact driver, either air or DC portable....
these should be used with extreme caution, as you occasionally still hear of someone wringing off their crankshaft with an impact driver.

I don't use any type of lubrication on the weights...it will only collect rubber dust from the drive belt in our open type variators.

that use to be common and even the Helix 250 used roller lube, but none of Honda's current CVTs use it or require it.
Now the roller or slider jacket IS the lubrication....anything you add to that will eventually cause problems.

While you have the CVT cover off, you should use an air hose to blow the rubber dust from the belt out of the rear contra spring, clutch bell and pulley assembly...dust build-up in that area leads to belt slippage and odd springy noises during upshift.

[you you]

if you mix two different weights of sliders, you still get a curve that looks like sliders....rapidly climbing rpm

but sliders are very linear as to their rpm/weight ratio.....
you can easily target a specific rpm shiftpoint with sliders and hit it reliably.

rollers are not linear.....
they flatten their curve, then make incremental jumps of about 600-800 rpm and start again as you go lighter....
there are certain shiftpoint rpm that are almost impossible to hit with any accuracy or repeatability using only rollers.


to do it right the first time, you should have a variator tool (it provides leverage to prevent rotation) and a 100ft.lb. torque wrench.

If you had done it before (or know someone who has) you can use an impact driver, either air or DC portable....
these should be used with extreme caution, as you occasionally still hear of someone wringing off their crankshaft with an impact driver.

I don't use any type of lubrication on the weights...it will only collect rubber dust from the drive belt in our open type variators.

that use to be common and even the Helix 250 used roller lube, but none of Honda's current CVTs use it or require it.
Now the roller or slider jacket IS the lubrication....anything you add to that will eventually cause problems.

While you have the CVT cover off, you should use an air hose to blow the rubber dust from the belt out of the rear contra spring, clutch bell and pulley assembly...dust build-up in that area leads to belt slippage and odd springy noises during upshift.

Anyhow. I'm not taking the car to the shops tomorrow. Might have a half of coke on the way back. Lovely sunny day hopefully.......

[robertinino]

Thank you Ed for your perfect explanation.
have you seen this? 17 grams rollers on sh 300, 0/100 8,7 second : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXlo6b6iw_U
ciao
R


who is that man: YOU_YOU what he says?

[BRed]

unfortunately our Forzas can never match that and still have a reasonable topend.....
we have the same engine but the SH300 has a huge bottom end advantage on acceleration:

SH300i Final reduction 8.571

NSS300 Final reduction 7.537

no matter how light you go in weights, with your Forza, you can never reach that gearing to the rear wheel with just the variator.
you could swap out final drive gears maybe?


I think that was just our friend YouYou's rambling, ranting way of saying my last few posts were sort of rambling rants...
he's right, of course!

I won't use the "QUOTE" function repeatedly to do line by line answers...
what's worse is I try to anticipate where your questions are going and sometimes it might seem to an observer that my chain of consciousness is about to achieve critical mass and start a self sustaining reaction....

I promise I'm still firing on both cylinders and there IS a point to all this!

[robertinino]

greeting from I

[robertinino]

greeting from Italy to YOU YOU

[robertinino]

Ed we have the same engine of SH300 but it has an advantage on acceleration and on top speed too. At this point I wonder in what Honda engineers have given advantages to Forza.........
maybe now you need to concentrate on your race ....

ciao
R

[gn2]

Ed we have the same engine of SH300

The Forza engine and SH engine are absolutely not the same.

[robertinino]

for me the engines are the same considering the production costs and the standardization of the manufacturers . Only change the final report to the wheel and mapping . The new model sh 2015 euro 4 has the same engine as the force definitely

[BRed]

Robert I have a video for you!

No, it's not a top speed run, but just a simple high speed merge from the shoulder of the road onto a 75mph interstate...
it shows 0-80 time.

I had just ridden the Forza north about 150 miles to meet several riders coming from Canada and escort them down.
I was riding with a Yamaha Majesty 400cc and a Big Ruckus w/ 600cc SilverWing engine upgrade.

To me the most important visual for this weight combination is the fuel consumption meter.....
that's 137.5 miles NON-STOP along the interstate at 70-75mph (sometime a little more) @ 67.3 mpg.
The 400cc got 51mpg and the 600cc got 46mpg....at those speeds.

on the acceleration run, I just rolled it open until it touched 80 and then backed off....
there was lots of revs left untapped at that speed.
I also tried to show the rpm/speed for several points....55, 60, 70, 80
It also shows (quite accidentally) how my Forza gets peak fuel mileage at about 6200rpm.
The fuel display drops a few decimal points during the run up to 80, but then climb back up as soon as revs go under 7000.

one other thing to take note of....
with Honda scooters, you'll always get your best run after the engine has been running about an hour.
you'll get a terrible run on one that's been running for less than 1/2 hour and even longer when air temps are cooler.

If you ever tour on a scooter, you'll notice it right away....
a long lunch break on a cool day will trim 5-8mph off your best speed until everything in the drive train heats up again and stabilizes....
at least I'm guessing that's what it is....the ECU is waiting for all the right input from all the sensors... before you get the final map.
maybe.

Whatever causes it, it is an observable fact that many have reported and it will affect your test of your Forza....
be sure you get some baseline runs BEFORE you do any mods.

This run was made after 4 hours of Interstate running...
I hope it helps!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M464cSwtfXs

[dasshreddar]

Hey BRed I like your research on sliders,rollers...
What have you found to be the best combo for overall performance?
20g sliders and 15 rollers?
I plan on getting 150-70 tire when needed, but what do you think would
Be the best combo for mid range punch (don't care about top speed )?
Thanks

[BRed]

I really like 20g sliders w/15g rollers...great acceleration, good fuel mileage and a useable top speed of ~87mph.
just using the tach, speedo and fuel gauge as tuning aids shows it to be the best all around combination.

I'm still waiting to see how close I can get with the tuning before checking the results with the Veypor....
at over 3000 miles of rough use and jackrabbit acceleration, that rear tire still looks like it has another 3000 miles!
once I replace the rear tire and install the Veypor's harness, I'll may tweak one set of weights or the other in 3 gram increments.

I also have a set of 24x18 Helix sliders coming from Europe and I think they may add a new dimension....
they are taller than anything I've tested.
they will bump low gear on the CVT higher and that will change the entire curve.

going to 3 19G sliders and 3 15G rollers will trim a second or 2 off the 0-60, 0-70 and 0-80 time, but it bumps fuel consumption...62-64mpg.
going to 3 20G sliders and 3 17G rollers will lower the rpm at each reference point by about 500 revs, but will add 1-2 seconds to each ref point.

With 20g sliders/15g rollers, cruising at 60mph/6200rpm will put fuel consumption over 70mpg.
with 19g sliders/15g rollers, cruising at 55mph/6200rpm will never quite reach 70mpg.

I'm fairly sure those weights listed above are within 3 grams of the optimal gearing of the Forza's CVT for the compromise of acceleration, fuel efficiency and topend cruise speed using 23x18 weights.

Taller 24x18 weights might change those numbers.

[robertinino]

hi Ed how are you?
Did you enjoy your racing?
thank a lot for your video, it is amazing! I like very your Forza acceleration :-), mine is so slowwww
Everything you said in your last post is so interesting.
Did you enjoy the race? What did you used for the race? Forza o big Ruckus?
ciao
R

[robertinino]

Ed I'm look forward the result of the 24x18 rollers test.....
R

[BRed]

Robert, I installed the 24x18 sliders in one of the Big Ruckus scooters...
it already has a Veypor harness and should show any gearing gains from the taller weights.


Any test weights should be run for at least a couple of hours or couple of days, before evaluating them....
they almost always act too light at first but move out faster as the jackets smooth out over the first 100miles.

I'll post a before/after comparison after I've run them a while.

[robertinino]

T hank you Ed I just come back from holiday--

[Pcxdemon]

Roberto,
There is a video of a Forza on YouTube with malossi variator and malossi exhaust that tops out 160kmh on the road!
Malossi is Italian brand and plentiful around you..

[robertinino]

hi demon,
what i like to do is just change variator performance.
Malossi is a very good brand, but Bred suggested me to keep the original variator is more reliable
ciao


honda forza at 160 km ........is may dream

ciaooo