routine 2 riders

[sendler2112]

US pricing is $4200 for the non ABS CBR250R and $5600 for the Kymco Downtown. The owner of the Kymco dealer is a Mom/ Pop type owner and long time dirt bike racer. A real motorcycle guy. He invited me to take the Downtown out for a spin so maybe this Saturday I can try it.

[gn2]

UK list for the downtown is £3999, the CBR is £3950 (plus £150 for ABS)
If the CBR is significantly less where you are, surely the Kymco price could be haggled down a fair bit...?
You should definitely take him up on that test ride offer. (and do a report on here afterwards )

[djcat]

I have ridden the PCX 2 up and my missus gave good feedback about it. I just asked her and she said "its comfy and I can lean against the top box. I am very happy and I think we can go to France on it and back."

Yep, and I felt the same from the captain's position. Even with 2 people it was quick enough to get away from cars at the lights. 12 seconds to 50 mph is less time than most people spent getting up to that speed in their cars and lots of people go no faster than 60 mph even on a motorway. As long as you keep up with the flow of traffic and mind others can go faster on the fast lane, I see no issues.

On a side note: Why are so many people on here complaining about the PCX top speed and how long it takes to get there? Is mine faster than yours or do I just know how to use the full throttle play? I am 95Kg so certainly now light weight and I regularly see 60+ mph on the clock even if I don't do full throttle. I am pretty amazed by that little 125cc and I understand its no sportsbike or 800 cc twin punch BMW, so I don't expect fast anyway.

[gn2]

The original PCX 125 is speed limited to 62.5mph.
After a while this maximum speed drops to under 60mph.
This isn't fast enough to stay ahead of HGV traffic so you end up getting passed by every single lorry.

[djcat]

Why does the top speed drop with age? Reading some other (foreign) forums the limitation is not with the engine revs or power output but with the gearing. The belt is kept from giving a longer transmission and there are kits to overcome this limit which don't cost too much (50 - 70 pounds).

Will definitely consider converting, as it also keeps engine revs lower at lower constant speeds and gets the top speed up to 70 mph

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whdcjUymtn0

[gn2]

The speed drop is caused by wear in the drive belt changing the gear ratio.
It happens with all rubber belt CVTs.
I suggest you do a bit more research to find out what is really involved in squeezing a few more mph out of a PCX 125 and the potential consequences of riding it for any length of time at that higher speed.
If you want more speed, get a bigger scooter.

[djcat]

Maybe you can point me in the right direction? If the gear ratio is modified accordingly, the engine is going to rev at lower rpm, so I don't believe that it would explode. Nor do I believe that suspension, brakes or wheels would be overworked and the tyres' speed rating is still way beyond 70 mph (94 to be exact). I don't want a faster scooter and that is exactly what I am saying all the time - it is fast enough for everything you want it to do. So what is it that can happen and how fast for how long do I need to go for that to happen?

[gn2]

Maybe you can point me in the right direction?

Nope, its your bike, do what you want with it (and your own research)

[sendler2112]

Maybe you can point me in the right direction?

How fast do you think you need to go to be able to go to be safe with the other cars on the highway? A PCX125 can only top out at 62 mph, 100 kph when the drive train is brand new. Top speed drops from there as the pieces wear. A PCX150 can hit 68 mph, 109 kph with new parts. Changing from rollers to sliders or changing the variator is reported to give an additional 3 mph, 5kph. But this is also close to the top speed limit of power vs wind resistance so you may not be able to hit the rev limiter even if you do get the gearing to go higher on the front pulley. A stock Kymco People250 can hit 80 mph.

[maddiedog]

Maybe you can point me in the right direction? If the gear ratio is modified accordingly, the engine is going to rev at lower rpm, so I don't believe that it would explode. Nor do I believe that suspension, brakes or wheels would be overworked and the tyres' speed rating is still way beyond 70 mph (94 to be exact). I don't want a faster scooter and that is exactly what I am saying all the time - it is fast enough for everything you want it to do. So what is it that can happen and how fast for how long do I need to go for that to happen?

I'm not trying to dissuade you -- by all means, you should attempt mods if you want. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the drivetrain, suspension, brakes, and wheels would all operate fine at 70mph, or even 80. The PCX is solid.

I'm more concerned about the engine. If you modify the gear ratio, you do lower the RPM, but the engine has to output more force at that RPM, increasing strain on the engine. It's a great way to blow out the top-end. I modified the Honda Reflex I used to own with a much taller tire, essentially giving the same effect of lowering RPM, thus allowing more top speed. It added just over 10mph, but after 6 months of regular riding like that, I blew the top end up while driving at the limiter on the highway.

Scooters are tuned conservatively, and I did severely neglect my Reflex, so my experience might not be the best example. I'm just saying there might be unforeseen consequences on the lifetime of the bike if you mod the drivetrain, then travel at the limiter.

There's also three prevailing opinions on the limiter of the PCX... Theory 1 is an RPM limiter. Theory 2 is a speed-based limiter (probably debunked). Theory 3 is a limiter in the variator. I've also heard combinations of any 2 of the theories. I used to believe theory 2, but given the top speed drop and the fact that disconnecting the speedo does nothing, I am a firm believer in theory 1, meaning if you can successfully change the gear ratio AND the PCX will still be able to output enough power at that ratio, you should see more speed.

If you end up attempting any speed mods, please document them in the Performance section, for science! Also, so we can learn from your experimenting.

[you you]

What about theory 4 in that it isn't specifically limited, just that is as fast as its meagre power output and the laws of physics will carry it?

I'd like to name it the qed theory, after me

[sendler2112]

I have observed #2. My PCX150 redlines at 9,600 rpm and 68 mph verified. But only if I duck. Sitting upright, stubborn as a statue, it is limited by power at 65 mph depending on which way the wind is blowing.

[sendler2112]

Stupid forum! Won't let you edit beyond a very short time limit.
.
I have observed #1, rpm limit. My PCX150 redlines at 9,600 rpm and 68 mph verified. But only if I duck. Sitting upright, stubborn as a statue, it is limited by power at 65 mph depending on which way the wind is blowing. A PCX125 is probably more often limited by power at 60 mph but will also hit an rpm limit at the redline at 62 mph going down hill.
.
Also keep in mind, most top speed reports include an 8% speedo error depending on the country. Most youtube videos showing 120 kph are really only doing 110.

[djcat]

Reading other threads on the German Honda board, they experienced two types of limiters. First it was the transmission that didn't allow any higher gear ratio through a built in spacing limiter, keeping the belt from giving a longer ratio. After that limit has been reached, any gains in speed were only due to rpm increase up to the limit of 9250rpm. Hence I believe that removing the transmission restriction I will in fact prolong the life of the engine, as for the same speed the revs will be lower. Acceleration will not be affected, so shouldn't be engine life during acceleration as the gear ratio should be the same when accelerating between speeds (eg. from 30 to 60 mph) if keeping the same weights because that is exactly the function of the continuously variable transmission - it will vary its ration according to speed and need. Only thing that you should experience is a higher top speed and lower fuel consumption.

As an answer to the theory that it is unsafe going on a dual carriageway with a vehicle that tops out at about 60mph: I get the feeling that you want to say that everybody on there goes faster than that, but going 60 mph is the normal travelling speed of many people, not only lorries. Lots of people even go slower....even in Germany on unlimited speed motorway sections people go on there with the PCX - of course not on the fast lane....

[gn2]

I believe that removing the transmission restriction I will in fact prolong the life of the engine, as for the same speed the revs will be lower.

Have you ever ridden a bicycle?
Longer gearing is harder to push than shorter.
Same speed @ lower revs = harder work for the engine.

[sendler2112]

Reading other threads on the German Honda board, they experienced two types of limiters. First it was the transmission

It seems you can get about an extra 5 kph of gearing on a PCX125 by changing the variator or using sliders instead of rollers to make sure the belt goes all the way out. I haven't had my 150 apart yet to see where the belt is riding.

[JGC]

That's odd, I have the PCX125, and I can get up to 67 (ish) mph out of it, not the 62.5mph?

[sendler2112]

That's odd, I have the PCX125, and I can get up to 67 (ish) mph out of it, not the 62.5mph?

What country is your bike? Speedo error?

[gn2]

That's odd, I have the PCX125, and I can get up to 67 (ish) mph out of it, not the 62.5mph?

Indicated on the speedo or measured with calibrated equipment?
Honda deliberately make their speedos over read by circa 8% ergo 67ish indicated is a true 62ish.

[djcat]

I believe that removing the transmission restriction I will in fact prolong the life of the engine, as for the same speed the revs will be lower.

Have you ever ridden a bicycle?
Longer gearing is harder to push than shorter.
Same speed @ lower revs = harder work for the engine.

Yes, but the PCX has a continuously variable transmission, meaning it isn't a constant ratio. Add the fact that my bicylce has 21 gears and you can see I understand the difference between the tallest, longest transmission rate within a range of possible rates and a fixed ratio.