MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

General Honda PCX chat, questions about the PCX, or questions about riding.

Moderator: Modsquad

User avatar
Amaranthus
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Contact:

MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by Amaranthus »

So in a previous post I did a comparison of a whole range of scooters in the 250-400cc range. I concluded that, on the balance of mostly objective criteria, the NSS300 Forza was a winner. See: http://www.hondapcx.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1946

However, I also wanted a way to compare requirements for different people, to help decide what scooter suited you best. It's pretty obvious that if you spend the majority of your time cruising on the Highways, then a maxi-scooter like a Burgman 650 is a good choice. Whereas if you are around town almost exclusively, then the PCX150 is pretty much a no-brainer. If you want to mix it up a bit, then maybe something in the middle -- Forza -- is the best way to go. But is there a way to make this a bit more, well, scientific?

Here is one possible way -- it uses a method called "multi-criteria decision-making analysis" (MCDMA) that I use a bit in my work as a researcher. I've compared the PCX150, Forza 300 and Burgman 650 here as I think they're among the best of their respective small/medium/large scooter classes, but the method would basically work the same irrespective of your particular choice. Okay, here goes.

First, let's look at the comparative specs (in metric - sorry, see the above quoted post for definitions of the columns):
Image

This is fine -- but what do people actually care about (in terms of 'service'). I defined the following categories, and then ranked the scooters against these:
Image

The columns definitions are obvious, but some things are difficult to quantify and I might need feedback (e.g. is the average service cost of a PCX150 higher or lower than a Burgman, given that the former needs regular value checking and the latter is just a more complex machine?). Safety is also a bit arbitrary, based on a combination of factors including handling, acceleration, visibility, braking, etc. Cost $ is purchase price, Manoeuv is manoeuvrability and might include ability to turn quickly, bursts of low-speed acceleration etc. Anyway, you get the idea.

Based on the above table, if you average these ranks, you get the following result:
PCX150 = 2.13, Forza = 1.5, Burgman = 2.0 (lower number is better)

However, where MCDMA shines is in allowing for weights, to reflect relative preferences. So I came up with the following weights table:
Image

The first analysis used no weights. For the others, I used the rules that 3 criteria could be given double weight (x2), 2 could be given half weight (x0.5), and the other 3 given no weight (x1). Applying each of these weighting schemes in turn gives the following table:
Image

Overall, I guess you'd have to conclude that the Forza come out as the best 'go-to, do-everything' scooter. But, better still, you can do a final weighting, where you use the 'Town', 'Highway' and 'Economy' schemes in combination, and give them a relative preference.

For instance, if you weighted Town = 0.8, Highway = 0.05 and Economy = 0.15 (in terms of what aspects matter most to you) then you get the following:
PCX150 = 2.19, Forza = 2.28, Burgman = 2.89 -- PCX150 wins

Whereas if your weights were instead Town = 0.2, Highway = 0.7 and Economy = 0.1 then you get this result:
PCX150 = 2.84, Forza = 2.16, Burgman = 2.36 -- Forza wins

etc.

It all comes down to personal preference as to what weights you apply -- there is no perfect answer. But tools like this certainly can help in making an objective purchasing decision when deciding on your next scooter -- whether it be an upgrade, downgrade or replacement!
White 2013 PCX150 -- lovin' it, but also thinking about a NC750D Integra upgrade in late 2014! We'll see...
User avatar
haildamage
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:01 am
Location: Kyoto/Osaka

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by haildamage »

overall it is very good i think. i would drop the safety rating as i think it is arbitrary as you suggest and sorry, but that one is BS, IMO.

the valve check requirement depends on whether you live in a Honda service rip off country or not. we dont have that expense here in japan among other countries.
User avatar
gn2
Forum Benefactor
Forum Benefactor
Posts: 7767
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:54 pm
Year: None
Location: NE Scotland

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by gn2 »

An important selection criteria has been overlooked, availability.
You can only choose from what is available locally.
Purchase price is the real biggie though.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
User avatar
Amaranthus
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Contact:

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by Amaranthus »

True, model availability matters a lot. But you could think of the above as Scooters: Small/Mid/Maxi and just substitute your relevant brand/model -- the analysis still works.

I hear what you say about purchase price -- if this matters a lot to people then they just change the weightings to reflect this, e.g. put a 4 or 10 or whatever rating on this attribute. Same with 'Safety' -- if you think this is BS, then you give it a tiny weighting, e.g. 0.1. That's the idea of MCDMA, flexibility in representing relative preferences. (Just make sure you keep the same cumulative weights across all models/comparisons, otherwise it won't work.)
White 2013 PCX150 -- lovin' it, but also thinking about a NC750D Integra upgrade in late 2014! We'll see...
User avatar
gn2
Forum Benefactor
Forum Benefactor
Posts: 7767
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:54 pm
Year: None
Location: NE Scotland

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by gn2 »

I have a much simpler system.

Q1 does it have abs
Q2 does it have a proper mph speedo
Q3 can I store my helmet jacket and trousers under the seat

Then buy the cheapest one with three yes answers.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
User avatar
you you
What's a wot?
What's a wot?
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:37 pm
Location: Between Lulu and Chichi

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by you you »

gn2 wrote:I have a much simpler system.

Q1 does it have abs
Q2 does it have a proper mph speedo
Q3 can I store my helmet jacket and trousers under the seat

Then buy the cheapest one with three yes answers.

Is having abs the most important thing about a scooter?


I'd better get to the gym
User avatar
Mel46
Forum Benefactor
Forum Benefactor
Posts: 6959
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:13 pm
Year: 2013
Color: red PCX
Location: Dallas, Ga USA

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by Mel46 »

I have a Burgman 400 and a PCX 150. I would rate my 400 comparable to the Forza 300. I don't know what the service is like on the Forza. I would hope that it is better than on the PCX. When we brought the bikes in for service it took all of 30 minutes to do mine, while my wife's PCX took all day. We both had the 600 mile service done, which included adjusting the valves. Cost on hers was $250. Mine was around $100 because they also changed the oil, as they did on hers. Working on my bike has been a snap for me so far. Hers.....well we did the valve adjustment recently and it ran into hours, not minutes like my Burgman. I have the older Burgman 400 so it does not have ABS. The new ones do come with ABS, though. My wife is only 5' tall and can not touch the ground from the seat on the Forza. On my 400 she can zoom all over the freeways, and she can easily touch the ground. It is the in town riding that is difficult, and I will admit that it is bulky at slow speeds. As the 400 compares to the 650, well the Burgman 650 is a great cruising bike, comparable to the Silverwing, but the weight is lower (CG) which makes it easier to maneuver in the city. The 400 is much easier to maneuver in the city than the 650, but can cruise quite well on the highway as well without wearing out the rider. The 400 is not meant for long rides, but can do it, just as the Forza is not meant for long rides but can do it. I think the preference between the Forza 300 and the Burgman 400 is valid. I think the 650 should not be in the comparisons unless you want to compare cruisers to in-city scooters, in which case the Silverwing will also work. In short, I think that if you are a Honda fan then you should be comparing each Honda in the chart categories. If you are comparing apples to apples as far as usage, compare the similar bikes. What you have in your charts can not truly be compared because what you get in the way of scooters should be based on your planned use. Within that use you can use MCDMA.
Currently own:
Red 2013 Honda PCX150

Givi tall windshield & tailbox - Lots of extra lights
Custom seat from Thailand - Bad Boy Airhorn
Takegawa Lowering Shocks - Michelin City Grip Tires
Headlight assy upgraded to LEDs w/HS5 main bulbs
NCY variator, drive face, and rollers
User avatar
Amaranthus
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Contact:

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by Amaranthus »

In short, I think that if you are a Honda fan then you should be comparing each Honda in the chart categories.
Agreed, in principle -- but they don't sell the Silverwing in Australia, hence my substitution of the Burgman :D The only Honda-made maxi-scooter is the 2012 NC700D Integra: http://motorcycles.honda.com.au/Urban_Scooter

I'm almost certain that we will also get the 2014 NC750 Integra in Australia by mid-2014 (http://www.hondamc.eu/nl-be/bikes/integra-23/ Not going to be released in US, though), and I'm seriously considering that...

As for 'planned use' -- this is why I had the section on Town vs Highway vs Economy proportions -- so that you could choose the usage pattern that best fitted your needs.
White 2013 PCX150 -- lovin' it, but also thinking about a NC750D Integra upgrade in late 2014! We'll see...
User avatar
haildamage
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:01 am
Location: Kyoto/Osaka

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by haildamage »

my issue with the safety category is that it is debatable which is the safest and all are pretty close unless you are counting ABS. if ABS is not standard equipment on those bikes, there should be a separate category for the ABS and non ABS versions or at least make it clear that you are comparing the ABS version. ABS is a good thing for any streetbike. however, i dont really feel it is nearly as important to have on a light bike like the PCX as it is on a heavy pig like the 650 Skywave.

another category you might consider adding would be filterability (how easy a bike can filter through traffic). this is important to people who would consider the PCX as it excels in urban riding environments.
User avatar
gokidd
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:27 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by gokidd »

Suitability for riding two-up might be a good category to add for this comparison.
Let us boogie ...
Honda PCX 150
Yamaha Majesty 400
User avatar
Mel46
Forum Benefactor
Forum Benefactor
Posts: 6959
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:13 pm
Year: 2013
Color: red PCX
Location: Dallas, Ga USA

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by Mel46 »

I had heard of the NC700 motorcycle but not the Integra. I don't think they sell that in the United States. Nice option for a commuter scooter/bike.
Currently own:
Red 2013 Honda PCX150

Givi tall windshield & tailbox - Lots of extra lights
Custom seat from Thailand - Bad Boy Airhorn
Takegawa Lowering Shocks - Michelin City Grip Tires
Headlight assy upgraded to LEDs w/HS5 main bulbs
NCY variator, drive face, and rollers
User avatar
gn2
Forum Benefactor
Forum Benefactor
Posts: 7767
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:54 pm
Year: None
Location: NE Scotland

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by gn2 »

The Integra is just an NC700 with different bodywork.
It has less onboard storage than the X or S.
Pile of shite.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
User avatar
you you
What's a wot?
What's a wot?
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:37 pm
Location: Between Lulu and Chichi

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by you you »

gn2 wrote:The Integra is just an NC700 with different bodywork.
It has less onboard storage than the X or S.
Pile of shite.

Forza better?
User avatar
gn2
Forum Benefactor
Forum Benefactor
Posts: 7767
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:54 pm
Year: None
Location: NE Scotland

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by gn2 »

Forza different.
NC range pile of shite compared to other similar capacity machines.
Four decades on two wheels has taught me nothing, all advice given is guaranteed to be wrong
~Cheap_Ride~
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by ~Cheap_Ride~ »

Grandpa had a Forza..........God bless his soul.
User avatar
Amaranthus
New Member
New Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:54 pm
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Contact:

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by Amaranthus »

gn2 wrote:The Integra is just an NC700 with different bodywork.
It has less onboard storage than the X or S.
Pile of shite.
Well, people are always entitled to their opinions, and looks is one of those qualitative things that is hard to put into such an analysis.

I personally like the look of the Integra. What is exciting is the 2014 NC series release, which has upped the displacement by 75 cc, changed the styling a bit, increased the storage on the NC700D, tweaked the dual clutch firmware, etc. To me, it looks like a very attractive package.
http://www.hondamc.eu/nl-be/bikes/integra-23/

If I upgrade I'll still probably go for the Forza, because I really like the combination of features, including low CoG, and the retention of the scooter feel. But I'm not going to make any final decision for quite a while yet -- maybe a year or so. Until then, I'll continue to mull over the possibilities...
White 2013 PCX150 -- lovin' it, but also thinking about a NC750D Integra upgrade in late 2014! We'll see...
~Cheap_Ride~
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jul 06, 2013 2:10 pm

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by ~Cheap_Ride~ »

Amaranthus wrote:
gn2 wrote:The Integra is just an NC700 with different bodywork.
It has less onboard storage than the X or S.
Pile of shite.
Well, people are always entitled to their opinions, and looks is one of those qualitative things that is hard to put into such an analysis.

I personally like the look of the Integra. What is exciting is the 2014 NC series release, which has upped the displacement by 75 cc, changed the styling a bit, increased the storage on the NC700D, tweaked the dual clutch firmware, etc. To me, it looks like a very attractive package.
http://www.hondamc.eu/nl-be/bikes/integra-23/

If I upgrade I'll still probably go for the Forza, because I really like the combination of features, including low CoG, and the retention of the scooter feel. But I'm not going to make any final decision for quite a while yet -- maybe a year or so. Until then, I'll continue to mull over the possibilities...
Have you given any thought to the CTX750D? I believe its slated for 2015. DCT trans, ABS, low COG. Lower seat height also. It would lack in storage, but bags or a trunk will remedy that quick. Just a suggestion.

Nay sayers in 3.........2.........1........
MORON
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:14 am

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by MORON »

hawthorne!! Great data man!! the stuff that matters...I had a comment on PCX 150 servicing: I had mine for a year and put 8,000 miles on it...I did all the servicing...yes i removed all that damn plastic.. took about 2 hours...I did this three times. I did my first service at 1000 miles. ZERO valve movement.....4000 miles...ZERO valve movement. Same at 7,500, my third and last service. these vales just don't move. the first valve check on the forza...wait for it......16,000 miles!!!!! hmmm. so whats up with the valve train on these motors? first, according to the service tech I spoke to here in Roseville is that the valves are made of a newer type of alloy. titanium and some other material..he was not as specific as I would have wanted. but less subject to heat.. also look at the clearances....004 intake.009 exhaust!! Huge!! Anyway, don't waste your time and money with Honda service...its not that hard and nine times out of ten you will not need to adjust the valves..
SmellyTofu
Regular User
Regular User
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 5:41 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by SmellyTofu »

I'm not even bothering opening the engine to check the valves. There's no more tappet sound, has the same amount of power it does, doesn't use more fuel than it already is using and honestly, if it all does turn to poo, it won't be that expensive to fix.
User avatar
you you
What's a wot?
What's a wot?
Posts: 10000
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:37 pm
Location: Between Lulu and Chichi

Re: MCDMA: PCX 150 vs Forza 300 vs Burgman 650

Post by you you »

SmellyTofu wrote:I'm not even bothering opening the engine to check the valves. There's no more tappet sound, has the same amount of power it does, doesn't use more fuel than it already is using and honestly, if it all does turn to poo, it won't be that expensive to fix.

Eggsbloodysactly
Post Reply