Dr sliders 28x18x17G

[BRed]

The biggest difference that I see on the rpm graphs is that for total weights needed to fully close the variator, rollers lose 500-1000rpm during the shifting process and sliders gain 500-1000rpm while upshifting.....it's not enough difference to feel or hear, especially with the CVT busy shifting sheaves.

That's the main problem with tuning a variator without some type of objective data to see before/after results.....
our "seat of the pants" dyno is easily fooled by added vibration, louder noise or just a different surge at some point, wishfully interpreting these things as performance improvements.

The Veypor's graphs often show subtle improvements that affect every day drive-abilty that are undetectable unless you're looking at the numbers.

YouTube runs from Thailand show the Forza can reach 160kph.....several have done it.
I have no desire to roll 100mph on the Forza, so I'm willing to trade off about 10-15mph of that untapped potential topend for a slightly better 0-70 time!

[Vulcandanny]

Just back form my trip to pattaya. Went down there to meet old friends and was willing to tune up my forza. Was in a famous scooter shop there, a lot of heavy tuned scooters (PCX's and Forza's) outside the shop and in the shop you could find everything to make your scooter looking better or going faster. I was interested in a Malossi Kit (rollers, variator and stronger spring) but the owner I contacted before i went down there, he went abroad for a few days and he forgot our appointment...... One of his mecanics showed me te Malossi Kit, it was much over priced, he also did show me some kind of a"black box" (modified CPU) to make the bike faster. I got a demonstration with a bike in the shop, it was reving much quicker and did 160km/h very easy, just with changing this CPU. But because the owner was not there and the workers did their job in the dirt of the road and all the parts were lying in that dirt as well, i just left without buying or doing eveything......

[BRed]

I would love to spend about an hour in one of those shops....
it's not the custom performance parts I'd want, since I prefer to "tweak" the OEM parts for modest improvements that don't impact reliability.

What I would want is the Bluetooth powered speakers that replace the glovebox covers on both sides of the dash!

And maybe one of the Wirus Win LowRider cut-down seats for the Forza 300?
I like their idea....lowered driver seat with slightly reduced storage, no backrest and extra padding for the passenger seat!

and I love the custom bodies, some that completely eliminate the underseat storage altogether and have a long low bench seat right on the frame....
the seats look 6" lower than stock! That would give a common RED Forza a different face?

The Asian market has always seen scooters as viable transportation while most to the rest of the world trailed years behind....
US Honda dealers still seem to see scooter sales as an inevitable annoyance that they must grudgingly suffer through to sell the real moneymakers.....
massive 1/2 ton cruisers and tourers for the older set and 160mph crotch rockets for the squids.

For the Big Ruckus, the only accessories were imported from Kajima in the Asian market, usually on eBay or by BattleScooters....
nothing was offered by the NA dealerships.

I hope that's not the case with the Forza,

[BRed]

almost forgot....

On the "blackboxes", there are at least two types (that I know of).
One is a "hacked" or completely remapped ECU (these are the better ones) and the other, more inexpensive ones just spice into the existing harness and spoof the IAT sensor signal, fooling the stock ECU into the using a colder than actual ambient air temperature map.... to force the injection system to enrichen the mix.

but I don't think I would use either of these on my daily rider?

according to MADMAX in Thailand, on their 160kph bike, they used an aftermarket variator with lightened weights, an Akrapovich (sp?) exhaust w/extended pipe (to match the OEM exhaust tract length, which flows through the stock Forza muffler 3 times...through the front chamber and back to the rear catalytic chamber, then forward to the front chamber then finally out the rear tailpipe) and a crankcase back pressure control valve (between the crankcase and airbox....it looks like it passes air both way at low rpms, but becomes a one-way check valve at high revs and high vacuum, lowering the internal crankcase pressure)....
and NO ignition, ECU or Fuel Injection mods....to reach 160kph.

[termix]

tried 28x18x17G and got a huge torque increase but top speed was reduced by about 3 to 4 mph. I'm a speeder so I am looking into heavier replacements. but for those who want to hold on to your bars for dear life that is the size. 0 to 45 in roughly 3 seconds and its really smooth. you dont even realize how fast your going until you look at the speedo. I dont have any cam data to post and i may work on that.

Hi mate

I'm assuming that you mean Dr. Pulley Sliders (not Dr. Sliders?) and you actually mean 23x18/6-17g (your original topic and message says 28x18)?

I'm thinking about of changing sliders for my Honda Forza 300 and these seem to be interesting choice. I'm looking faster acceleration and i don't need current max speed (live in Pattaya so 140km/h max speed is pretty much useless)

Sliding Rolls SL2318/6-17g
http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... cts_id=601

Did you also changed Sliding Pieces at same time?
Sliding Pieces SP2318-J
http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... ucts_id=35


I've noticed some disturbing information about Dr. Pulley's chart where they tell what part is right for bike.
http://www.drpulley.info/drpulley_docs/Typenliste.pdf

In Honda Forza 300 line they give right Sliding Pieces number SP2418-K (?) and i assume that it's not right and it should be SP2318-J. I mean, if your rolls are size 23, why sliding pieces should be size 24? Must be mistake.

I really love my Forza but if you could get it going little bit faster...

[BRed]

Either of those sized sliders will work.

In that particular size of rollers (23x18), Honda has two diameters.....
23x18 used in the FES250, PS250 and NSS250 (and NSS300)
24x18 used in the CN250 and CH250

There's less than 1mm difference in the diameter and the two sizes are usually considered interchangeable, with one caveat.....
the 24x18 starts you off in a slightly HIGHER low gear than the 23x18.

Now it appears from that chart that DRPulley is offering both size sliders as well?
That could be a big improvement over the sliders I've tested, since the ones I've used in the past were actually about .4mm shorter than 23x18 rollers, meaning they started off in a LOWER low gear.

If you're mixing rollers and sliders, the slider size you choose won't matter much since the rollers will set low gear ratio....
if you're running all 6 sliders, you may want to go with the taller (24x18) sliders to avoid lowering your starting gear ratio.

[termix]

Either of those sized sliders will work.

In that particular size of rollers (23x18), Honda has two diameters.....
23x18 used in the FES250, PS250 and NSS250 (and NSS300)
24x18 used in the CN250 and CH250

There's less than 1mm difference in the diameter and the two sizes are usually considered interchangeable, with one caveat.....
the 24x18 starts you off in a slightly HIGHER low gear than the 23x18.

Now it appears from that chart that DRPulley is offering both size sliders as well?
That could be a big improvement over the sliders I've tested, since the ones I've used in the past were actually about .4mm shorter than 23x18 rollers, meaning they started off in a LOWER low gear.

If you're mixing rollers and sliders, the slider size you choose won't matter much since the rollers will set low gear ratio....
if you're running all 6 sliders, you may want to go with the taller (24x18) sliders to avoid lowering your starting gear ratio.

Doesn't lower starting gear also mean fastest possible acceleration from 0-100km/h (0-60mph)? I have to confess that my knowledge about these things are paper thin and this is my first scooter ever. My goal is improve acceleration from traffic light and i don't mind if max speed is reduced, so 23x18-J Sliding Pieces seem to be best choice then?

[BRed]

The need to lower your starting gear is dependent on many factors and since I don't yet have any hard data from the Veypor computer on the Forza, I can't just say you don't want to do that, but the Forza appears to have ample power to run taller gearing.

I can say that from my experience tuning Reflex and Big Ruckus scooters that make ~19HP, lowering the starting gear helped on a completely stock bike, but as you retuned the carburetor, air box and exhaust, you reached a point where using a taller starting gear would result in a faster 1/4 mile time.

The more power you make, the taller the gearing you can effectively run......
low powered bikes, bikes that are heavily loaded (or overloaded) and bikes regularly run on mountain roads are usually the ones that benefit from lower gearing.

I'm counting on Honda to have done all the required fuel system tuning, since PGM supposedly adapts to the rider and environment....
approaching 1000miles, the Forza has won me over.

In stock form, it will easily reach and hold 85mph, which took every tuning trick in the book to do with the Reflex and Big Ruckus.
It cruises at 75mph at about 2/3 throttle, whereas the BR and Reflex are pretty much pegged at that speed.
It is constantly topping the best mileage I could get out of a BR at highway speeds. 68mpg-BR, 72mpg-Forza

The only area it is lacking that I can tell is 0-60 time.....
The Forza will do 0-60 in about 11-12 seconds (that's just doing a timed count)....
a tuned Big Ruckus will do 0-60 in < 9 seconds.

That's all the Forza really needs......a couple of seconds.
the Veypor will show where it makes peak torque. Then you adjust the total roller weight to allow upshift to start about 200rpms above peak torque.
That lets the revs fall into the power band as the rollers move out.
A few runs then will show you how the acceleration curve is running compared to the peak torque readings.

Then I adjust the ratio of slider weight to roller weight to keep the acceleration rpm curve as close to the peak torque as possible out to 75mph.


Since I've tuned many of the scooters in the group I ride with regularly, the pressure is on!
I'm not going to let my Forza be outrun by a Big Ruckus.

[gn2]

According to Honda, Forza peak torque is at 6000 rpm

[BRed]

I think Honda's stated peak torque and HP readings are made with the engine removed from the bike....
usually the CVT, final drive and rear tire result in those reported numbers being bumped higher by several hundred rpm in reading delivered torque and HP.

That was the case with the Big Ruckus, which had a claimed peak torque reached at 5500 rpm, but Veypor testing proved it to be closer to 6000
and tuning the variator for that rpm curve at upshift resulted in the best acceleration.

that's the impression I'm getting on the Forza.....
several websites from around the world have dyno-ed the Forza and are reporting peak torque at the rear wheel was reached in the 6250-6500rpm range.
Based on my past experience with Honda scooters, that sounds about right.

The Veypor also sometimes shows that individual engines can vary by several hundred rpm from each other as to when peak HP and torque is reached, so getting an actual reading of torque and HP from your scoot is helpful to maximize your tuning efforts.....
this can vary by as much as 12 grams of total roller weight to achieve the same 1/4 mile time.

[termix]

The need to lower your starting gear is dependent on many factors and since I don't yet have any hard data from the Veypor computer on the Forza, I can't just say you don't want to do that, but the Forza appears to have ample power to run taller gearing.

I can say that from my experience tuning Reflex and Big Ruckus scooters that make ~19HP, lowering the starting gear helped on a completely stock bike, but as you retuned the carburetor, air box and exhaust, you reached a point where using a taller starting gear would result in a faster 1/4 mile time.

The more power you make, the taller the gearing you can effectively run......
low powered bikes, bikes that are heavily loaded (or overloaded) and bikes regularly run on mountain roads are usually the ones that benefit from lower gearing.

I'm counting on Honda to have done all the required fuel system tuning, since PGM supposedly adapts to the rider and environment....
approaching 1000miles, the Forza has won me over.

In stock form, it will easily reach and hold 85mph, which took every tuning trick in the book to do with the Reflex and Big Ruckus.
It cruises at 75mph at about 2/3 throttle, whereas the BR and Reflex are pretty much pegged at that speed.
It is constantly topping the best mileage I could get out of a BR at highway speeds. 68mpg-BR, 72mpg-Forza

The only area it is lacking that I can tell is 0-60 time.....
The Forza will do 0-60 in about 11-12 seconds (that's just doing a timed count)....
a tuned Big Ruckus will do 0-60 in < 9 seconds.

That's all the Forza really needs......a couple of seconds.
the Veypor will show where it makes peak torque. Then you adjust the total roller weight to allow upshift to start about 200rpms above peak torque.
That lets the revs fall into the power band as the rollers move out.
A few runs then will show you how the acceleration curve is running compared to the peak torque readings.

Then I adjust the ratio of slider weight to roller weight to keep the acceleration rpm curve as close to the peak torque as possible out to 75mph.


Since I've tuned many of the scooters in the group I ride with regularly, the pressure is on!
I'm not going to let my Forza be outrun by a Big Ruckus.

If you meant that for me, i'm afraid that you mix me to someone else as my bike doesn't have any modification yet?

Anyway i want to keep this very simple and because i'm not technician, i don't want to go too deep in technical details, i just want to get simple answer for my question. You seem to have much knowledge about these things, but unfortunately there is a risk that your audience doesn't understand what you try to say.

So... some sort of conclusion for this. Simple and not very expensive choice for getting better acceleration to Honda Forza 300 is changing Dr. Pulley Sliders (and sliding pieces). They seem to be size 23x18/6 and then you can choose weight 16g/17g/18g/19g/20g (Red Color=Recommended)

http://www.drpulley.info/drpulley_docs/Typenliste.pdf

17g gives naturally better acceleration but has anyone tried 18g Slider Rolls? They are still 3g lighter than original (assuming that original are 21g) but not quite extreme than 17g seem to be?

(Btw. is that you BRed? http://totalruckus.com/phpBB3/viewtopic ... lit=jcosta)

[BRed]

With the Big Ruckus and Reflex I tested just about every weight class from 14gram rollers through 26gram rollers, then a variety of sliders and finally slider/roller combinations.
Slider/roller combinations always gave the best acceleration with the highest top speed at the lowest rpm (yes, that is by compromising on 3 variables).

For the Forza I still haven't wired it for the Veypor tuning computer so I have no run information or hard data to go by....I don't know what to tell you.
I'll try to tell you what I know to help you make a choice.

Sliders gain rpm very fast during acceleration.....it's easy to see that a bike turning 7000 rpm at 75mph has a better chance of quickly reaching 85mph than one that is turning 8000 rpm at 75mph.
It should also be apparent that the scoot taking 1000 more sips of fuel per minute is getting poorer fuel mileage?

Because of this trait, sliders give a top speed roughly equivalent to rollers that are 2 grams lighter....
6-21 gram sliders will yield a top speed close to that of 6-19 gram rollers.

Replacing 6 rollers with 6 sliders of the same weight will give about the same result as installing 6 rollers that are 2 grams each lighter.

When my Forza reached 700 miles, I removed 3 of the 21g rollers and replaced them with 3-20g sliders....
it bumped the upshift rpm by ~100 revs and trimmed a second off the 0-60 time with no other noticeable effect.

So.....
if I were giving tuning advice without good run data to base it on, I would suggest you buy a set of 19g sliders and first try just 3 of them with the 21g rollers.
If you don't like that, you can always install all 6 sliders.

But........
If you're going to install all six sliders, I definitely recommend using the taller ones (24mm).


And last, yes that's me......
I use the same username on both forums.

[alan]

well sunday I installed some 22g dr pulley sliders takeoff was good rode to town and back about 20 miles round trip seemed to me my rpms were higher than I like so I took them back out when I got home.replaced with some new stock rollers the stock rollers that were in originally had rust on the metal so im glad I changed them 3500 miles on scoot I changed oil to amsoil 10w30 syn. I had some 20g dr pulley sliders also no need for me to try them after the 22g sliders.the bike ran good and smooth I just didn't like it

[termix]

Just back form my trip to pattaya. Went down there to meet old friends and was willing to tune up my forza. Was in a famous scooter shop there, a lot of heavy tuned scooters (PCX's and Forza's) outside the shop and in the shop you could find everything to make your scooter looking better or going faster. I was interested in a Malossi Kit (rollers, variator and stronger spring) but the owner I contacted before i went down there, he went abroad for a few days and he forgot our appointment...... One of his mecanics showed me te Malossi Kit, it was much over priced, he also did show me some kind of a"black box" (modified CPU) to make the bike faster. I got a demonstration with a bike in the shop, it was reving much quicker and did 160km/h very easy, just with changing this CPU. But because the owner was not there and the workers did their job in the dirt of the road and all the parts were lying in that dirt as well, i just left without buying or doing eveything......

Can you please tell me name and address of this shop? Thanks

[Vulcandanny]

Termix, give me your e-mail and i will send you the name of the shop and tell u where it is located. I do not want make a shop bad here just because of i was having a bad experience there. Basicly i did like the shop very much, its a scooter owners paradise, i did just not like the way the workers did handle the expencive parts, but the owner was abroad that time, so maybe that was the reason.....

[termix]

Termix, give me your e-mail and i will send you the name of the shop and tell u where it is located. I do not want make a shop bad here just because of i was having a bad experience there. Basicly i did like the shop very much, its a scooter owners paradise, i did just not like the way the workers did handle the expencive parts, but the owner was abroad that time, so maybe that was the reason.....

Hi Danny

It seems that this forum request 15 post before you can send private message to another board member, only God and owner of this forum knows why. Anyway you already have 14 posts, so after one more you are "amongst better folks" and you can send this information with private message to me. Personally i'm sure that it's gonna take at least year to me to get 15 post...

Btw. When you think about your "bad experiences" you must remember that this is Thailand, pretty much everything here is done with "another eye closed" and you just have to accept the fact that we can't compare Thais to Germans or Japanese. Luckily we are speaking only scooter now, not Ferrari...


Anyone else used this shop in Pattaya? They changed bigger Ermax windshield and put Givi box to me and i was thinking to use them when i get my Dr. Pulley sliders which i already ordered from Germany (i don't have tools, space or interest of doing change by myself)

Mai Thai Motorbikes, Soi Buakhao Pattaya

http://maithai-motorbikes.com

[Vulcandanny]

ok, lets try that thing with the 15 posts.... this one should be it.....

[termix]

ok, lets try that thing with the 15 posts.... this one should be it.....

I got your PM but because i don't have my 15 post yet, i can't reply to it. Anyway i ordered Dr. Pulley's 23x18/6-18g rollers and i'll get them when my german friend comes at end of September. I'll let you all know how they work...

[termix]

Hi VulcanDanny

Feels surrealistic to answer your private message in public but it's only way...

I ordered parts:

1) Sliding Roll SR2318/6-18 (39,90€)
http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... cts_id=602

2) Sliding Pieces SP2318-J (7,90€)
http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... ucts_id=35



If you look Dr. Pulley's chart, you will see that after their "recommendation" for Sliding Pieces 2418-K there is question mark (?) so i'm sure that it's mistake what they didn't correct in chart. Also if you compare with all other Sliding Piece sizes, all of them are same size than Sliding Roll's so why only in Honda Forza you should use bigger? I'm 100% sure that it's misprint and actually right size is SP2318-J

http://www.drpulley.info/drpulley_docs/Typenliste.pdf


I want to pay attention for those who had problems with too high RPM. I read some Vespa forum that guy who install them himself didn't put them on right position even when he was 100% sure that he did. He had problem with too high RPM and after he mention that in forum, someone asked if he was sure that he put them on right position. He reply was that he was sure... but he was so much DIY man that he decide to check it. After dismantle whole package, he noticed that parts were in wrong position but you couldn't tell it when you drove the bike. Only problem was that RPM was too high when driving max speed. Anyway after right install, that problem disappeared and sliders worked as promised. So... if you have problems with too high RPM, are you 100% sure that rolls are in right position? So was this guy also...

[Vulcandanny]

Hello Termix
its ok, no problem if everybody can see your answer, could be helpful for all of the members thinking about changing the rollers and sliding pieces. its also what i thought when i saw the list on dr. pulleys website. i did ask him there but his answer was not what I expected.... ok, he is on vacation at the moment, so i did not want to disturb him any more until he will be back. but i also think, after checking the whole list, that the SP 2318-J sliding pieces are the right ones. so i will wait for your experiences with the 18gr rollers then i will make my decision if i will go for the 18gr or even the 17gr rollers. can't go on longer trips anyway at the moment, rainingseason dropped in now......