honda forza 300 - help from Italy!

[robertinino]

hi my name is Robert from italy. Sorry for my english language!
I'm here because I have a problem with my forza speed ( max speed km 125/130), I'd like to have more acceleration and speed ........
I red some posts here how to increase the energy of the engine, so my question is:
Change the original honda stock rollers is enough, or I have to change the variator?
In the first case a member of the forum (B Red) said the best solution is a mix of sliders and rollers of different weight on the original variator, but different weight don't create decompensation in the rotation of the motor?
in the second case: with brand of variator do you suggest? I hear good things about "J Costa variator" .....
Which one is the best solution for me?
Thank you very much if someone want help me
ciao
Robert

[BRed]

You're probably asking the wrong people, since we don't even have a Performance section for the Forza.

A few of us here like to go fast....

On your questions, it sounds like you're asking if reducing the variator weights will unbalance the engine?
if so, the answer is NO (as long as the weight distribution is symmetrical ... 3x3 and alternating)


on the JCosta, I would say it depends on how you intend to use your Forza.
I really like the JCosta for performance, but it should be considered a racing type upgrade and not suitable for extended highway use....
I've worn out TWO of them on Big Ruckus scooters, one in 12000 miles and one in 15000 miles.




another one from a Majesty





if you run a JCosta, check he pins every 1500 miles and change them out every 5000 miles.

As for aftermarket variators....

Although I'm sure some of the small scooter guys will say I couldn't be more wrong, for large Interstate capable scooters, I would only recommend variators that come with TWO pulley faces.

The single faced variators that use your existing front pulley usually have enough misalignment in the faces to allow the belt to tip to one side and when that happens at high speeds, the two faces turn at slightly different speeds relative to each other and the bronze bushing gets ground away by the fixed boss.

I've put 3-4 times as many miles on a stock Honda variator with no detectable wear at the boss/bushing, so for a dependable road bike I would only recommend tweaking the OEM variator.

A good place to start is swap out 3 of your 21 gram rollers for 3 each 15 gram rollers and then work from there?
Be adventurous...its a Forza?

[robertinino]

Dear B red I was hoping you answered to me.
Thank you very much, you are very kind and competent. I read all your posts...
I don' t understand what OEM variator means? Anyway, one time ago you said that Honda variator is well done. So I decide to use the original variator and chance the rollers. I don't want spent to much time in control and maintenance of the engine, becouse I want to maintain reliability of honda scooter.
I Know the original honda rollers are 21 gram, and now you suggest to change only 3 rollers with 15 gram. So about my old question different weight doesn't create problem to the engine (motor shaft )? You answered that the distribution of the weight is symmetrical and doesn't create problem. Correct?
In italian forum anyone say that rollers must be the same weight ...........
I'd would like more more shooting at low revs and little more speed in highway. ( 21 gram - 15 gram is the best?)
The solutions are :
3 original honda rollers 21 gram and 3 rollers 15 gram (what kind of brand?) Adige? italian brand :-)
3 rollers 21 grams and 3 rollers 15 gram all of the same brand
3 sliders 21 gram dt. pulley and 3 sliders15 grams dr. pulley
3 sliders 21 gram dt pulley and 3 15 gram rollers or opposit 3 sliders 15 gram dt pulley and 3 rollers 21 gram ?
the size is: size 23x18 dr pulley? - size 23x18 Adige or other good brand rollers?
I hope this change isgood enough , for this reason according to your experience which one is the best solution for me ?
thank you very much
Robert

[BRed]

Robert:

OEM is just another way of saying "stock Honda variator"....it means Original Equipment of Manufacturer - OEM.

On mixing roller weights, scooter riders around here have been doing that for years with no harmful effects.
On mixing types of weights (rollers and sliders).....well, that's more controversial and I'm afraid we're on the bleeding edge of that research.
You will find many "experts" who will tell you not to do it.

Most of those who have tried it are still running that configuration and one of my BRs has over 40,000 miles running slider/roller combos and completed an IronButt SS1000 ride (1034 miles in 17 hours, 3 minutes) while running mixed weights.

As a test of theory, I would suggest you first just replace 3 of your 21 gram rollers with 3 Adige 15 gram Carbon rollers....
I think you will be pleased with the result and it will only cost the price of the 15G rollers.
It will let you know if you like running mixed weights.

I like the Adige light weight rollers because the hard slick jackets show no signs of wear even after many miles....
sliders are designed to eliminate wear by using long flat bearing surfaces instead of a cylinder (roller).

After that if you still want more acceleration to improve 0-70mph time, then consider changing the 3 remaining heavier rollers (21G) to DR Pulley sliders in the 19-21G range.

If you mix sliders and rollers, the sliders should always be at least 3 grams heavier than the rollers so they control the shift points.

[you you]

Robert:

OEM is just another way of saying "stock Honda variator"....it means Original Equipment of Manufacturer - OEM.

On mixing roller weights, scooter riders around here have been doing that for years with no harmful effects.
On mixing types of weights (rollers and sliders).....well, that's more controversial and I'm afraid we're on the bleeding edge of that research.
You will find many "experts" who will tell you not to do it.

Most of those who have tried it are still running that configuration and one of my BRs has over 40,000 miles running slider/roller combos and completed an IronButt SS1000 ride (1034 miles in 17 hours, 3 minutes) while running mixed weights.

As a test of theory, I would suggest you first just replace 3 of your 21 gram rollers with 3 Adige 15 gram Carbon rollers....
I think you will be pleased with the result and it will only cost the price of the 15G rollers.
It will let you know if you like running mixed weights.

I like the Adige light weight rollers because the hard slick jackets show no signs of wear even after many miles....
sliders are designed to eliminate wear by using long flat bearing surfaces instead of a cylinder (roller).

After that if you still want more acceleration to improve 0-70mph time, then consider changing the 3 remaining heavier rollers (21G) to DR Pulley sliders in the 19-21G range.

If you mix sliders and rollers, the sliders should always be at least 3 grams heavier than the rollers so they control the shift points.

He averaged over 60mph over a 17 hour period on a scooter!!!! Incredible. You'd have to cruise at over 90mph over here for that.

Makes my 1,300 miles in 20 and a bit hours to the mediteranean from northern England look a bit shameful. I only had a turbo Audi and the peage on my side. Should have taken a twist and go.

[robertinino]

I never hear about the ironbutt ss 1000 ride, but I understand that is a game where you have to ride 1000 miles (1600 km) in 24 hours. 1034 miles ( 1655 km) in 17,03 hours means an average of (95,6 km per hour)! What kind of scooters participate? The stress of the engine is very high... Which brand usually is the most reliabe?

Thank you very much B Red for your suggestions, I will opt first on mixing roller weight (according to your experiance and I hope the experiance of other people), since there are no harmful effects.
I'll replace first ,3 of mine 21g honda rollers with 3 Adige 15g Carbon rollers.You told to me that you like very much Adige rollers because the hard slick jackets (I suppose they are very restistent), but at this point it's better for me to change also the other 3 21g original honda rollers whit Adige? so that all 6 they have the same degree of consumption? or in alternative to the first option, at place of 3Adige 15g, change with 3 Honda 15g for the same reason as before, the same brand, same degree of consumption.
Last question size of Adige rollers must be 23x18 -. and.... grams correct?
ciao
Robert

[BRed]

The IronButt SaddleSore 1000 is the ride you've heard about.....a certified ride of at least 1000 miles in less than 24 hours.

All sorts of motorcycles are used but so far only a few scooters in the 250cc class, mostly Hondas.

By consumption, do you mean wear?

If so, don't worry....
mixing rollers usually means there are 2 different diameters of weights being used.
Mixing sliders with rollers always involves 2 different sized weights.
It won't hurt anything, as long as they're 23x18.

I'm not sure I understand what your intentions are, but it sounds like you were talking about using all 6 15 gram rollers??
You definitely do NOT want to do that.

If you intend to use 6 rollers of the same weight, you need at least 18 gram rollers to retain top end speed.
mixing 3 heavy weights with 3 light weights allows you to use much lighter TOTAL weight than you can run effectively when using 6 identical weights.


Are you saying you want to have everything done at one time by your mechanic?

[robertinino]

sorry again for my english language.
I'll do as you said, 3 21g rollers and 3 15g rollers. (the best solution for me)
For the 15 g rollers I'll buy Adige rollers, but for the 21g I leave the honda original or I'll have to buy new Adige 21 g ? In this way all rollers are new (now I have on my forza 3000 miles)
Size 23x18 is the same size for 15 grams and for 21 grams?
The second problem will be to change rollers becouse is the first time for me and I want to do myself.
ciao

Dt Pulley sliderds togheter with Dr Pulley variator is better than J costa variator?

[BRed]

sorry again for my english language.

The second problem will be to change rollers becouse is the first time for me and I want to do myself.
ciao

Robert, that's what I was hoping you would say!
with this type of mod, the only way to insure you get it right is to do it yourself.


If you're going to swap the weights yourself, I say go all the way the first time?
I'll help guide you through the process and we'll replace all 6 21g rollers with new 23x18 sliders AND rollers


First tell me the maximum legal speed limit for your riding area and then, what is the fastest you have ever ridden, on any bike?
This will let us know what max weight is needed for best top speed.


DR Pulley's variator work better with all sliders than does the Honda variator with all sliders, but I don't think they make one for the 300 yet.....
any of the 250 series aftermarket clutches will fit the 300, but only an SH300 or NSS300 variator will work.
JCosta, Malossi and Polini make variators for the SH/NSS 300 series, but the OEM variator is more reliable.

on the Big Ruckus using 3 19g sliders and 3 15g rollers, I could almost duplicate the acceleration curve of the JCosta variator.
In fact we called that particular combination "the Poor Man's JCosta" since it followed the rpm curve of the Costa and had about the same 0-60 time...
the Costa could beat it in the long run.


On the Forza, 20G sliders and 16G rollers are 1 second slower @0-70, but will still hit a top speed of 87mph in less than a minute.

[robertinino]

I live in a small village near Florence. Here around there is countryside with long straights and inviting bends.
Honda specification says that Max Speed for Honda Forza 300 is 138 km (about 86 miles), and acceleration about 14 seconds for 0/100 km ( 0/100miles) (very slow for me, becouse sh 300 take less than 10 seconds for 0/100 and is more faster), and I never understand why sh300 goes better with the same engine!!!!!.
Before reading your posts I thinked the best solution, was chance parameters of forza 300 CPU with parameters of SH300...because the engine of the forza, for me turns undertone, but I didn't know where to start.
Than I discover the honda forza forum and I carefully read all your posts and I understood that changes to the variator can solve my problems.
My forza when I arrive at 120 km speed (about 75 miles) it goes hard at 130 km (about 82 miles).....and is very slow in acceleration
so what I really like is max speed km 140/145 ( about 88/90 miles - that is a little more of what honda declares 138 km), but first of all a very very good acceleration less than 10 second 0/100 km ( in miles about 0/60 ) because I like driving fun and have power out of bends and for overtaking cars..
'Last day you propose to me of 6 original rollers to change only 3 rollers 21g with 3 rollers 16 g, now do you think is better mix rollers and sliders?

My first question is: what is the difference of performance in this technical scheme, thinking that the weight you have propose to me is the most suitabe 21g and 16 g:
3 rollers 21 g and 3 rollers 16 g - 3 sliders 21 g and 3 rollers 16 g
second question: sliders work well in Honda OEM variator? and why when you propose sliders you prefer not to change all combination in 6 sliders: 3 sliders 21g and 3 sliders 16 g?

ciao
Robert

[you you]

I live in a small village near Florence.

Well that's me hating you then

[BRed]

Robert:
the modifications I suggest to you as an owner are based on whether you are doing the work or having a mechanic do the work for you.

If a mechanic is doing the work, keep it simple!

I would suggest a conservative approach using a combination of mixed roller weights....
the reason is simple.....he's less likely to screw it up if sliders are NOT involved.

If you are doing the work, then I would suggest a more aggressive solution of a combination of sliders and rollers...
you should review all the pictures posted here and by the time you have the variator open you should KNOW exactly how sliders are oriented in the tracks.

That's the main problem....no one knows how to install sliders properly and most people get it wrong the first time.
Then they base their evaluation of how well sliders work on the fact that improperly installed sliders always over-rev the engine.
It's not a fair test of how sliders work.

The NSS300 and SH300 use the same variator, but the NSS300's rollers are each 2 grams heavier than the SH300....21g vs 19g.


last question....
what weight of 23x18 DR Pulley sliders are available to you?


Based on your reply, you'll want ~20gram sliders combined with 16 gram rollers.

[robertinino]

thank you B Red, so the best solution for me is 3 20 g sliders combined wit 16 g rollers. (you look like a doctor! :-) ) In this combination how is the time of performance, for example; acceleration 0/60 is less than 10 seconds? and the max speed is more than 85 ?

This what one day you said; ....." I think every mid-sized scoot should be using sliders in a combination, but that's for them to discover some day"......
Why brand like honda, suzuki, kymko, piaggio etc... don't use mix configuration?
I'm seeing on internet this types of sliders: Ninja,is this better that dr pulley?
In the mix configuration of 21g and 16 g why you don't use all sliders? People say are much better than rollers

I'll do the work on myself, the problem will be when I'll have to open the variator with a special key and than close the variator with the torque wrench that I don't have.

[robertinino]

i forgot welcome to Tuscany!

[BRed]

Robert:
one of the reason none of the major brands currently use sliders is they didn't invent them...
sliders are relatively new in the world of CVTs.

There would be proprietary licensing issues and it would require new research and development....
how long was fuel injection available before scooter makers stopped using carburetors?

the reason for mixing the two styles of weights is the shape of the acceleration curve of the two different components.....
with enough total weight to fully close the variator, 6 sliders gain rpm and 6 rollers lose rpm...during the shift process.

this chart compares sliders to rollers.....



where you WANT to be is somewhere between those two very distinctive curves....
the only way to make that happen is with a mix of sliders and rollers.

As far as exotic weights go, I only have experimented with DR Pulley sliders and Adige HRS weights.
The Adige HRS weights uses cylindrical rollers with flat spots and that style does not mix well with conventional rollers.
Results are not repeatable.

[you you]

Robert:
one of the reason none of the major brands currently use sliders is they didn't invent them...
sliders are relatively new in the world of CVTs.

There would be proprietary licensing issues and it would require new research and development....
how long was fuel injection available before scooter makers stopped using carburetors?

the reason for mixing the two styles of weights is the shape of the acceleration curve of the two different components.....
with enough total weight to fully close the variator, 6 sliders gain rpm and 6 rollers lose rpm...during the shift process.

this chart compares sliders to rollers.....



where you WANT to be is somewhere between those two very distinctive curves....
the only way to make that happen is with a mix of sliders and rollers.

As far as exotic weights go, I only have experimented with DR Pulley sliders and Adige HRS weights.
The Adige HRS weights uses cylindrical rollers with flat spots and that style does not mix well with conventional rollers.
Results are not repeatable.

What do the different coloured lines relate to?

[robertinino]

B Red for how long are you test all these solutions?
For me you are a Genius. no one is so kind and prepared in this matter as you. No one in specific italian forum have never been able to say what you explane to me. ....No other component on a "scooter" determines it's personality and overall driveability more than the CVT........

so next step for me is to buy: 23x18 Dr pulley 20 gram and 23x18 Adige HRS 16 gram to mix togheter to obtain a rapid acceleration and a good max speed
For Dr Pulley what I found is : http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... ts_id=604r 23X18 20 gram
For Adige HRS what I found is: http://www.adige.eu/public/ENG/products ... t-kits.asp - But in this table the only size available in HRS 23x18 is 14 gram mod: VE-402/C1 and in Carbon Fiber 23x18 is 15 gram mod: VE-399/C2 and 17gram mod: VE-399/C3
Do you know where to buy adige hrs 23x18 16 gram?

Than you very much. What's your name B Red?
ciao

[BRed]

What do the different coloured lines relate to?

The Veypor's software just arbitrarily assigns colors to each of the 1/4 mile runs when you select them for graphic comparison.

I usually select 1 or 2 known configurations as reference, for example a run with the original stock configuration and a run on the JCosta which were my low end and top end extremes. Then I select 5 or 6 runs of the configuration being tested after discarding the fastest and slowest runs.



Using multiple runs of the test configuration helps avoid "cherry picking" results and also shows how repeatable the results are.

[BRed]

B Red for how long are you test all these solutions?
For me you are a Genius. no one is so kind and prepared in this matter as you. No one in specific italian forum have never been able to say what you explane to me. ....No other component on a "scooter" determines it's personality and overall driveability more than the CVT........

so next step for me is to buy: 23x18 Dr pulley 20 gram and 23x18 Adige HRS 16 gram to mix togheter to obtain a rapid acceleration and a good max speed
For Dr Pulley what I found is : http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_i ... ts_id=604r 23X18 20 gram
For Adige HRS what I found is: http://www.adige.eu/public/ENG/products ... t-kits.asp - But in this table the only size available in HRS 23x18 is 14 gram mod: VE-402/C1 and in Carbon Fiber 23x18 is 15 gram mod: VE-399/C2 and 17gram mod: VE-399/C3
Do you know where to buy adige hrs 23x18 16 gram?

Than you very much. What's your name B Red?
ciao

Robert:
I bought my first motorcycle in 1967 but I bought my first "twist n' go" in 2006.
I had been injured after being struck from behind at a stop light.
I had a dislocated should and torn rotator cuff and for 18 months could not ride my motorcycles, a VT1100 Shadow and a 650 Ural sidecar as one was too heavy and one required brute strength to drive.

A friend brought by a scooter one day and even with my arm in a sling, I was able to ride it.
I went to a dealership intending to buy a temporary 50cc scooter to ride while I was recuperating and ended up with a Big Ruckus 250.
It was to be my "disability scooter" until I healed enough to ride the "big" bikes and then I would sell it.



Not long after that, a kid on a 50cc Ruckus asked if I had lightened the weights. I didn't know what he meant but after talking a while, he showed me how and we swapped out just 3 26g weights for 3 17g ones and I took one ride and was so impressed by the amazing change in performance that I was hooked on CVT tuning and on the Big Ruckus.

we have a saying here that even a blind squirrel stumbles onto a nut occasionally.
the slider/roller thing I just stumbled onto while testing.....
I tried for a long time to use rollers that were heavier than the sliders, but that always gave a sawtooth curve that looked like a 3 speed.




You want the Carbon Fiber rollers, not the HRS rollers.
The HRS style is like little hexagons and have a tendency to tumble when mixed with any other style.
Either the 15G or 17G is acceptable (the 17 G are what I have but they're a little light, actually closer to 16G.)
You're buying them mainly for their slick hard jacket.

My name is Edward, but my friends call me ed....
my user name is just a contraction of Big Ruckus (BR) ed
(not very imaginative, but it beats the hell out of Forzaed?)

[robertinino]

Ed (R Red) ,
this is the setup you currently running...105 grams total weight, 3x20 gram DR Pulley slider and 3x15 gram Adige CarbonFibre rollers.
This combination will do 0-60 in <10 seconds and will accelerate from 55mph to 70mph in < 5 seconds.
Based on my reply, you have propose to me ~20 gram sliders combined with 16 gram rollers, but Adige carbon fibre rollers don't exist in 16 grams (only 15 and 17 gr).
For hard acceleration out of corners and for overtaking and good max speed what is the alternative at 16 grams for me?
For me it is useless to attempt technical because you already know what's best.

Ruchus looks very strange. In italy doesn't exist, we love sofisticated design :-), but it looks like a bike that never breaks.....
ciao

This are new sliders dr Pulley?

nuovi rulli pulley.jpg (119.12 KiB) Viewed 9185 times

nuovi pulley 2.jpg (104.02 KiB) Viewed 9185 times

dr pulley 3.jpg (223.12 KiB) Viewed 9185 times