running great - then engine just died -

[GeeGusKahn]

PCX zipping along – engine died – turned over but no start.
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Wednesday I left home – stopped and topped up gas – rode up to clinic about 40 miles.
Scooter ran great.
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Came out of clinic – started right up.
Scoot was running very nicely on trip home with no problems
when at about 30+ miles it cut off at about 55 mph or so.

I coasted along till I found a safe spot to pull off the road.
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Tried for restart.
Maybe twice engine sputtered for a moment – then died.
Tried again but battery now too weak.
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This was about noon and temp was in upper 90s with heat index of maybe 105.
No shade tree handy so – [/size]

PCX on TowTruck Sad day 1st crop 600k.jpg (186.31 KiB) Viewed 5413 times

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Yes, it has gas.
I charged up the battery
I tested all fuses for both continuity and voltage – all good.
I tested main relay – good
No flashing codes on dash.
Dash lights up and does its normal self test.
Hit the start button and engine flips over one time then nothing.
Hit it again and it does same thing – flips over one time then nothing.
I also noticed that headlights were not coming on with the key.
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Anyone know if when you have a no start, does the engine crank like a regular starter or does it just flip over one time and you have to hit the starter button again ??
It has always started on first push of button so I have never cranked it over so to speak.
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So, any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.
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Today, Saturday, I managed to get most of tupperwear off so I can start checking everything else.
.[/size][/size]

[Pcxdemon]

Battery? Have you tested it properly? Even though it reads 12v it may just simply have no more cca left to run the bike...

[GeeGusKahn]

Hay Pcxdemon
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Put meter on it while trying to start it.
Drops to about 9volts
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So I took battery out of lawn tractor - fully charged it and tried again.
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Still won't do anything other than flip over.
Hit starter button, does the same thing again.
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Battery dropping to about 10volts on start attempts.
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Also - I changed the spark plug to a new one - no difference.
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I'll be back at it tomorrow morning.
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Thanks
Sean

[Pcxdemon]

Hay Pcxdemon
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Put meter on it while trying to start it.
Drops to about 9volts
.
So I took battery out of lawn tractor - fully charged it and tried again.
.
Still won't do anything other than flip over.
Hit starter button, does the same thing again.
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Battery dropping to about 10volts on start attempts.
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Also - I changed the spark plug to a new one - no difference.
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I'll be back at it tomorrow morning.
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Thanks
Sean

Check coil wire maybe came unplugged..
Also what cca tractor battery is? Pcx take fairly big cca battery to start it up..
Maybe take the battery to the battery shop for a proper battery test..

[Mel46]

Is it possible that you got bad gas during your last fill up? If the battery is godd then thee next suspect would be the gas. Sorry to hear that you had a problem. Did you fill up at an off brand gas station? Some of those stations do not check their fuel on a regular basis, so the gas could have water in it or be old gas. If you have some fuel at home that you can use, drain the fuel into a container , possibly an empty gas container, and put your fuel in. You don't have to fill it completely, perhaps a gallon. Then, with the battery fully charged, try to start it again. If you still can't, it might be the fuel pump. Try the gas first though.

[j.d.b.]

The short-cranking bothers me. Mine appears to keep cranking if I hold the button down (also 2013). Does the fuel pump cycle on when you key it up?
You'll need to start with the basics: Spark? fuel? compression? Anything looking obviously out of place? Without being able to hook a scanner up you can't determine things like whether the controller, sensors, etc. are working. Other than this it's off to a professional with a scanner.

[Pcxdemon]

The short-cranking bothers me. Mine appears to keep cranking if I hold the button down (also 2013). Does the fuel pump cycle on when you key it up?
You'll need to start with the basics: Spark? fuel? compression? Anything looking obviously out of place? Without being able to hook a scanner up you can't determine things like whether the controller, sensors, etc. are working. Other than this it's off to a professional with a scanner.

Short cranking is a typical symptom with stuffed battery with not enough cca to turn the engine over. I've had it couple of times..

[GeeGusKahn]

The short-cranking bothers me. Mine appears to keep cranking if I hold the button down (also 2013). Does the fuel pump cycle on when you key it up?
You'll need to start with the basics: Spark? fuel? compression? Anything looking obviously out of place? Without being able to hook a scanner up you can't determine things like whether the controller, sensors, etc. are working. Other than this it's off to a professional with a scanner.

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The short crank really bothers me too.
I agree that short crank is typically a battery issue - but
The tractor battery is rated at 230cca and it starts mower which is a 500cc thumper without a problem.
PCX just does the flip with a push of starter button.
Just to be wild and crazy - I also put 50amp booster engine start from charger on it - no change at all.
So, right or wrong, I'm ruling out battery as problem.
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Yes, normal cycle for fuel pump.
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Keep ideas coming - someone might hit on it.
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I promise that I will keep everyone informed as this progresses and what solution is.
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[GeeGusKahn]

Is it possible that you got bad gas during your last fill up? If the battery is godd then thee next suspect would be the gas. Sorry to hear that you had a problem. Did you fill up at an off brand gas station? Some of those stations do not check their fuel on a regular basis, so the gas could have water in it or be old gas. If you have some fuel at home that you can use, drain the fuel into a container , possibly an empty gas container, and put your fuel in. You don't have to fill it completely, perhaps a gallon. Then, with the battery fully charged, try to start it again. If you still can't, it might be the fuel pump. Try the gas first though.

Hay Mel - how goes it in Marietta ?
I don't miss Cobb Co traffic at all.
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I always buy name brand gas at high volume stations.
That day was a Shell station and it took right at a gallon.
I don't think fuel is an issue with this problem because -

As others have answered an important question -
is the flip normal or should it crank continually when starter button held down is most important.
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No, it does not crank continually when starter button held down.
So, I am dealing with something else.
See my earlier post about battery and boost.
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So I am now going to start checking all connections, wires, and components.
Since I have the tupperwear off - I will take some photos and try to post with results of testing.
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One thing about exposing the guts of this machine is I am learning where all the components are and how to test.
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I will try keep everyone updated as I progress through this.
and I will provide the answer to the question
"Does your chewing gum loose its flavor on the bed post overnight" ??
OK, wrong question.

[GeeGusKahn]

OK, just had a thought - even though wife not present.
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Since we don't have idle stop in the states - I need help from those of you that reside else wear in the world.
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Those with idle stop and use it - when engine stops at traffic light or wherever
Does engine make a flip sound - don't really know how else to describe it.
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And
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when you turn trottle to leave stop - what sounds does it make - cranking or just turns on.
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Thanks
Sean

[Inoplanetyanin]

Unfortunately I doubt the issue is your battery.
When batteries fail, the bikes don't just shut down on the highway.

Difficulty cranking also suggests a seized piston.
Have you check the oil level and condition? Coolant level?
You definitely need to take out the spark plug and look at its condition.
Then plug the hole with a newspaper and try to crank the engine.
If still nothing, squirt a bit of oil in it and crank again.

If still nothing, turn the crank manually (will have to take off the cvt cover for that) and see if the engine has unusual resistance in it.

How many miles on the bike?
This bike has no separate starter motor, it's all one big electrical unit that serves as an alternator and the starter. So if a wire failed in that unit, I imagine it's possible for it to shut down and not even turn over to start.

[DAB]

When you use the tractor battery does your headlights and instruments work?

[j.d.b.]

On mine, the headlight comes on when the motor starts, not on key-up (2013). O.P., do you have a manual? They have quite a few trouble-shooting procedures. There are a couple interesting "fail-safes" built into their running system, as well that will keep it from running.

[GeeGusKahn]

LADIES AND GENTLEMAN -
BOYS AND GIRLS OF ALL AGES

WE HAVE A SOLUTION
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NEWS AND PHOTOS AT ELEVEN !
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more to come later today and yes I am shouting because I have solution.
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[Mel46]

We are waiting with baited breath. What did you find?

You ask how it goes here in Cobb County...Well we jump on our bikes when we can and head north. It is like being in a fish bowl here, and traffic is horrible! Recently we took the bikes to Tiger, Georgia and picked up some jelly and other stuff. There is plenty of storage on these little scooters.

[GeeGusKahn]

Unfortunately I doubt the issue is your battery.
When batteries fail, the bikes don't just shut down on the highway.

Difficulty cranking also suggests a seized piston.
Have you check the oil level and condition? Coolant level?
You definitely need to take out the spark plug and look at its condition.
Then plug the hole with a newspaper and try to crank the engine.
If still nothing, squirt a bit of oil in it and crank again.

If still nothing, turn the crank manually (will have to take off the cvt cover for that) and see if the engine has unusual resistance in it.

How many miles on the bike?
This bike has no separate starter motor, it's all one big electrical unit that serves as an alternator and the starter. So if a wire failed in that unit, I imagine it's possible for it to shut down and not even turn over to start.

Hay Inoplanetyanin
Some good thoughts - and one sentence made me think that I had overlooked a simple check.
You said.
If still nothing, turn the crank manually (will have to take off the cvt cover for that) and see if the engine has unusual resistance in it.
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I thought - self - why have you not cranked over the engine manually??
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THANK YOU FOR THE THOUGHT.
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If I had done this back at the beginning I would have saved myself a lot of work - so I will pass some thoughts to everyone on troubleshooting the scooter.
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see the next couple of posts as I work through this.
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Thanks
Sean

[GeeGusKahn]

When you use the tractor battery does your headlights and instruments work?

On mine, the headlight comes on when the motor starts, not on key-up (2013). O.P., do you have a manual? They have quite a few trouble-shooting procedures. There are a couple interesting "fail-safes" built into their running system, as well that will keep it from running.

DAB and j.d.b.
thank you for the thoughts - now that I have it running again I can add to this.
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Before I found the solution I took schematic and traced voltage and or continuity from battery positive through various components.
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The headlights do not come on till the motor is running - which explains why I did not see my headlights on.
Its one of those silly little things that I never really paid attention to - but I wasted some time on it because I could not remember this.
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The headlights on the PCX almost work as any old headlight circuit might
EXCEPT - the ground does not go to frame or directly to battery negative.
The ground goes to the ECM which provides the ground once the engine is running so the headlights come on.
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Tail and brake lights do come on with key.
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Another clue that I kind of missed was no trouble codes. No flashing and no codes.
I have the service manual - thank goodness.
But the way my scoot was acting did not match the troubleshooting guide.
Because of equipment that I use to work on was all computerized - you really paid attention to the fault codes.
Now - on occasion - you didn't get any codes which forced you to start voltage and continuity checks from B+ through system.
Usually when this condition existed, it was not an electrical or computer problem but a mechanical problem dragging down the system.
So - the ECM was telling me it did not see any problems - so maybe I should be thinking outside the box.
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Thank you for your thoughts and input.
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Sean

[GeeGusKahn]

We are waiting with baited breath. What did you find?

You ask how it goes here in Cobb County...Well we jump on our bikes when we can and head north. It is like being in a fish bowl here, and traffic is horrible! Recently we took the bikes to Tiger, Georgia and picked up some jelly and other stuff. There is plenty of storage on these little scooters.

Mel, I hope you are not still holding your breath, must be awful blue by now.
I'll have to look up Tiger, does not ring a bell as to location or jelly etc.
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more to come.
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Sean

[waspmike]

Have you done the oldtimer trick of taking out the plug, grounding it on the engine then pressing the starter to see if you have a spark?

[GeeGusKahn]

OK, so now we get to the heart of the matter.
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After reading input from my fellow PCXers, my brain started working again.
Always follow the KISS rule till it doesn’t work any more.
Dummie, you didn’t check the CVT yet.
This is really foolish on my part since it doesn’t take 5 minutes to split the case.
I pull cover and what do I see ???
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PCX CVT 1 cover pulled 324k.jpg (134.97 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

Well there’s your problem!
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PCX CVT 2 belt broken 324k .jpg (123.43 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

The belt is broken, jammed and some of the sliders came out of variator.
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PCX CVT 3 belt broken jambed veriator 324k.jpg (124.74 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

Not sure how well you can see it but if you look at upper left of this photo
you can see that belt is slightly twisted and wedged between veriator and cvt case.
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NO WONDER MOTOR WOULD NOT TURN.
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Also look at lower center behind twist in belt, you will see a slider laying there.
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and finally the belt itself.
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PCX CVT 4 belt broken 324k.jpg (114.17 KiB) Viewed 5259 times

So – now we know why motor would not turn over.
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BUT - we don’t know why everything fell apart.
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It’s the old who came first question – the chicken or the egg ?????
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Veriator nut still in place and properly tight and no damage to any components.

After I get all the tupperwear back on and have a chance, I will play around with the variator and see if I can duplicate the sliders coming out.
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Some time in the next week or so I will start a new thread to talk about my CVT set up and thoughts on this incident with sliders coming out.
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For this post I am happy to say as soon as I cleared the jamb the engine started right up.
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Sean

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