New variator and drive face

[chicaboo]

Today I installed the Daytona variator and ADVANCEPro 14° drive face with the original belt (3700km) and 11g sliders (700km).
I reused the original belt and sliders for consistency, so I had a good back to back comparison with what I've been running up until now.
The bike now hits 139kph on the centre stand instead of 120kph (119kph on road) with the stock variator, drive face and rollers.

The Daytona variator is a high quality looking unit with black painted finished on the inside, and is possibly lighter than the stock variator.
The ADVANCEPro drive face has low-profile fins with squared off edges, and at 120mm dia, looked 2~3mm bigger than the stock drive face.
The Daytona variator came with 6x14g rollers, that (in my limited experience) looked to be of very high uniform quality compared to stock.
I chose the Daytona variator and ADVANCEPro 14° drive face based on cost vs availability and high praise from members of this forum.

It was too windy to do any high speed tests today, but my initial opinion of this variator and drive combo on a stock engine is, meh...
Acceleration off the line is slightly less than the stock variator, and maybe similar in the mid range, but feels slower from 70-80kph+.
If adding some 20kph potential top end can only come at the cost of reduced acceleration, then I guess this is how that feels.
I'm uncertain, but let's say that the bike was perhaps a little more relaxed at cruising speed using less RPM to do the same work as before?

I'm somewhat disappointed. However, if I go ahead with performance mods and open up the motor, I feel this setup is a good partner.
I also have a new Daytona reinforced belt and +23% clutch springs to try out. I expect the clutch springs will aid acceleration off the line.
I'm not sure what my next experiment configuration wise with the parts I have will be. I could try 3x11s+3x14r (12.5g) with stock drive face?
I really want as much acceleration to 100kph as I can get. I probably should have tried the MFR variator kit, but I only feedback from 1 source.


Thanks for your attention, Gav.

PS: I scraped something doing a Rossi-style left hander...

[Mel46]

All of that to get how much of an increase?? That is why I went for the NCY variator and drive face instead, with 13 gram rollers. Total cost was only $100 and it increased not only top end but my off the line capability.

[chicaboo]

All of that to get how much of an increase?? That is why I went for the NCY variator and drive face instead, with 13 gram rollers. Total cost was only $100 and it increased not only top end but my off the line capability.

Mel, there is a reason why not one person in Australia has ever tried the NCY variator that is seemingly better than everything else.

I chose the Daytona variator and ADVANCEPro 14° drive face based on cost vs availability and high praise from members of this forum.

After converting the NCY variator and drive face to AUD and adding the US sellers exorbitant shipping costs, it is not financially viable!
The Daytona variator and ADVANCEPro drive face are chicken feed compared to the $200+ the NCY works out to landed in Aus.
For the same reason I could never buy the Chimera air intake that i want so badly, but there are no other similar alternatives available.

Let's look at my starting point - I have 11g sliders which gave me a remarkable increase in acceleration and added 20kph top speed.
The added acceleration and top speed is a function of the sliders bringing me up to the revs I need to move my significant mass.
I'm already starting with an higher state of performance and top speed (71.4mph+) that most US PCX owners my weight only dream about.

Had I gone from stock everything to any variator combo, I imagine the tone of the first post would be greatly different.
That's what you did Mel. You've never experimented with roller weights before doing the full NCY kit with 13g rollers, or even after.
I understand it's a good way to go in the US market, but the other half of the world needs to consider other options... C'mon man.
Furthermore, I know you've read all the variator posts from wings, valiant, bpt, PCXdemon, waspmike, etc. So you know the NCY and ADVANCEPro drive faces are identical in size and angle, so we can rule that out. And you do recommend the NCY drive face as being essential...

So, is the NCY variator alone that much better than any other highly regarded variator and drive face combination?
Does NCY know some black art that no other company has been able to figure out? Maybe, but I'm dubious and look at this logically.

Anyhow, the upside is that the Daytona combo gives a lighter rider access to potentially 86.3mph top speed (downhill with tailwind...).
Seemingly this is at the cost of acceleration. So, in this regard the lower top speed available from NCY should rob less acceleration.
Is this NCY's secret formula? Balance? OK, maybe I can achieve this with what I've got by other means with some experimentation.

I'm thinking a lot of this tall gearing is coming from the drive face, which I can change for stock.
I don't know if this is a solution, but running the Daytona as intended with their 14g rollers and stock drive face might get me back to basics?
Over time the belt leaves a wear pattern on the drive face which you can determine if the variator is giving the most travel it can.
I will examine my stock drive face and see if the sliders alone were giving me everything they could from top to bottom belt travel.
From there the stock drive face can be profiled to maximise acceleration and potential top speed. But this is getting fiddly with machining.

Gav.

[Oyabun]

Gav,
It is a common practice among scooter tuners, to mark radial lines with a sharpie on the variator faces. This way even after a quick run one assess what is the range the belt have traveled by visually inspecting the faces. No need for a full dive face removal, it is enough to remove the variator housing.

[chicaboo]

Thanks Oya.

Just looking at my old drive face I have 1-1.5mm unused travel on the outside and 3.5mm or so on the inside.
The old stock variator is the same on the outside and only 2mm unused on the inside belt travel.
There is also a significant darkened wear pattern about one third out from the centre of both faces.
Some material could skimmed off the stock drive face and then profiled to the outer edge of the dark wear pattern.
This would probably give a 14° angle on the inner third and then change back to the stock 15° angle for the remainder.
This could potentially even the wear to the centre of the drive face to match the variators 2mm so the belt can sit lower.

[Oyabun]

And may I ask what is your expectation of this mod?
A more agressive profile on the first 1/3 and the stock on the outside?

[Mel46]

Chicaboo, it never crossed my mind that NCY was not available to Australia. They are an international company so I made an assumption that international meant Australia too. If the day comes when I can afford to purchase an extra set of NCY Variator and Drive Face, though the Daytona Drive Face may work as well, then I will send one to you. I think it is a shame that your country is missing out on the opportunity to try all sorts of addons for their scooters.

Before I installed the NCY set I read and discussed all sorts of other possibilities on this forum. I also had the advantage of being able to discuss these different items with my friend, who lives not too far from me. At that point in time he was installing a big bore kit on his, after pulling his variator upgrade. One option I did not follow that many of the others suggested was to buy and install the Daytona heavy duty belt. I still have the regular belt on it, but will probably switch after it finally wears out. What I found out from following all of the threads and talking to my friend was that NCY seems to be considered the best bang for the buck, especially for those who have limited bucks. Others on this forum did all of the hard work. They tried all of the different combinations. I didn't have to buy the other variator, etc. They did this for me. Hopefully I thanked them.

I am sorry if you read anything into my question that offended you.

[chicaboo]

And may I ask what is your expectation of this mod?
A more agressive profile on the first 1/3 and the stock on the outside?

As I didn't come up with the idea, I will just direct you to the other forum post that I found:
http://totalruckus.com/phpBB3/viewtopic ... 34&t=12244

Basically it is all about maximising the belt travel and increasing the gear range across the drive face.
Mind you, thinking laterally, I can imagine individual belt design may achieve some of this on it's own.
But currently I can see no evidence that the belt goes close to touching the boss. So some bottom end can be gained.

As I have a spare brand new Daytona belt, and 14g rollers I can mix and match with, I'm not about to go pioneering just yet.
Also, I have not given the belt time enough to adjust to the new variator and drive face yet. So some more kms are needed.
I'm also interested to see how my fuel consumption has been affected with the new variator. I'm usually doing 2.7L/100km.

[chicaboo]

Chicaboo, it never crossed my mind that NCY was not available to Australia. They are an international company so I made an assumption that international meant Australia too. If the day comes when I can afford to purchase an extra set of NCY Variator and Drive Face, though the Daytona Drive Face may work as well, then I will send one to you. I think it is a shame that your country is missing out on the opportunity to try all sorts of addons for their scooters.

Before I installed the NCY set I read and discussed all sorts of other possibilities on this forum. I also had the advantage of being able to discuss these different items with my friend, who lives not too far from me. At that point in time he was installing a big bore kit on his, after pulling his variator upgrade. One option I did not follow that many of the others suggested was to buy and install the Daytona heavy duty belt. I still have the regular belt on it, but will probably switch after it finally wears out. What I found out from following all of the threads and talking to my friend was that NCY seems to be considered the best bang for the buck, especially for those who have limited bucks. Others on this forum did all of the hard work. They tried all of the different combinations. I didn't have to buy the other variator, etc. They did this for me. Hopefully I thanked them.

I am sorry if you read anything into my question that offended you.

Thanks for the clarification, Mel. I wasn't offended, I just thought your response was ignorant given my previous explanations.
As I've read almost everything to do with variators on here, I've seen your posts and experiences with Dave during his build.

NCY is available to Australia, but at great cost. Exceeding the price of Takegawa, Yuminashi and J-Costa, which are among the most expensive.
You will find a loyal following to Malossi in Europe, J-Costa (tampon variator) in South America, NCY in USA and Takegawa/Yuminashi in Japan.
Everyone thinks that their variator of choice by region is the one to get. And by region, they may in fact be correct.

In Australia you take what you can get, as everything has to be imported based on the sellers shipping price. The US charges a lot to ship NCY.
Japan and Thailand are quite reasonable on shipping rates to Australia, even though residents in the US find them to be particularly expensive.
I bought a huge box of stuff from Webike Japan, which only cost me $45AUD (~$30USD) shipping. The NCY kit alone costs more than double that.
Here you can almost buy two different variator kits from Japan for the same price as the NCY landed. Maybe three generic kits from Thailand?

Anyhow, I would love to try the NCY kit. It looks to be very high quality with an attention to detail you don't often see.
And they probably do have the best balance between gearing length and acceleration spot on, or near enough to it.
The only drawback I have read about NCY variators is that they don't like sliders due to the teflon coating on their ramps or some such.
Given how much I love sliders, that in itself might be a problem for me. So really, a quality variator with sliders seems a good compromise.

I can buy variators for days, but at this point I just need to work with what I've got and strike the best balance I can.

Gav.

PS: Now to venture out into the light and see how much damage I did when I went knee down...

[chicaboo]

I got a 39mm socket today, so I'll to do my clutch springs over the weekend.
I think I will change back to the stock drive face with sliders for this test session.
I suspect it will lower my gearing somewhat, but I worry changing too much at once muddies the results.
At a later date I can try the ADVANCEPro drive face again, but with 14g rollers or mixed sliders/rollers.
This time around I'll be sure to try Oya's suggestion of putting permanent marker on the drive faces.

[chicaboo]

Update: I changed things up a little bit and installed the clutch springs and new reinforced Daytona belt today.
I figured working on the clutch was such a pain I'd do the belt now and let it all bed in before changing the drive face and sliders.
The brand new belt added 3km top speed on the centre stand, which is now 142kph (88mph), compared to 3700km original belt.
I noticed the new drive face had witness marks right to the edge with 3-4mm unused in the centre like the original drive face.

After I've had a rest and some lunch I'll go for a test ride and see how it goes.
I'll take it easy for a whole tank to let things settle before I give it a hard time.

[chicaboo]

Back from the test ride: The firmer clutch springs stop the scoot bogging down in the revs up to 20kph like with stock springs.
Interestingly, this doesn't make much difference to seat of the pants acceleration feel or any other aspect of riding for that matter...
They're the second lightest clutch springs you can get, so maybe there's not much to be expected from that and a worn clutch?

It was too windy to go over 100kph, and even that was a handful. So I still have no idea how top road speed is with the Daytona.
The scoot does feel dull still over 80kph compared to the stock variator and drive face. And the new belt is still pretty tight, too.
I wonder if the new screen makes the scoot handle differently at speed? I will need more time in the saddle to work that out...

After I've put another full tank through I will switch to the Daytona with 14g rollers and stock drive face, then the 12.5g combo.
Putting a full tank between changes should give enough time for the changes to be realised to full effect.

[chicaboo]

Today I put the stock drive face back on with 14g rollers in the Daytona variator (Daytona's standard variator setup as sold off the shelf).
Surprisingly, removing the Advance Pro drive face and sliders only cost me 3kph top speed on the centre stand (back down to 139kph).

Acceleration felt about the same as the previous setup, and I was able to get back to 115kph on level ground with 120kph tucked down hill.
Actually, it might have had a bit more go over 80kph, but that could also be due to it being less windy than on previous test rides.

The 14g rollers gave a smoother power delivery without that 50%+ throttle required to get anywhere sort of feeling.
I guess that makes sense as the 11g sliders need more RPMs to push on the variator.

[chicaboo]

Update:
So the Daytona variator and 14g rollers with stock drive face and upgraded clutch springs returned better fuel economy than I had been getting with stock variator and sliders - low 2.6L/100km compared to high 2.7 L/100km range with 11g sliders only.
The bike revs less generally, but the clutch springs help get it off the line to compensate. Don't bother installing tighter clutch springs with lightish rollers or sliders, as it (understandably I guess) defeats the point...
I'm not sure what the 14° drive face brings to the party, except the larger diameter facilitating a slightly higher top speed (+3kph...) while protecting the side of the belt from fraying at high speeds? I guess the power delivery is altered, but I would need to see it on a dyno to appreciate it.

I'm assuming this setup with the Daytona variator, 14g rollers and clutch springs would feel similar to the NCY variator with 13g rollers. Which i have to admit is a fairly nice compromise with almost no impact to stock fuel economy.
However, with the already tall gearing on the stock AU variator, I found the 11g sliders gave the best of everything except noise and fuel economy. You really do need 50%+ throttle input more often with the 11g sliders, so the scoot doesn't feel as relaxed.
Since the Australian variator is already so good, I'm thinking 13g sliders with upgraded clutch springs is probably close to ideal for the best of everything? But I haven't run any of these tests with a tacho to see what RPM I've been pulling.

Gav.

[chicaboo]

Update:
The Daytona variator with 14g rollers returned a best fuel economy of 2.45L/100km (96mpg), which was even better than stock.
This felt like it would make for a good setup for when the BBK has been installed for a good balance of performance vs economy.

I managed to squeeze a ride in today with the stock variator and 13g sliders. First, amazingly it pulled 131kph on the centre stand!
This is bizarre, considering I could only get 120kph on the stand with 11g sliders and the original factory belt with 3700km on it...
I know the belt could be good for 3kph at best, but not 11kph. So maybe the 11g sliders were too light to push the variator all the way?
Anyhow, the test ride didn't feel much different to the 14g rollers on the Daytona. Once again it was too windy to push beyond 110kph.
I'm going to leave the CVT alone for a long while now and see what economy I get back from this setup.

Geared speed tests on centre stand:
1. Stock - never tested (95kph max road speed).
2. 11g sliders, stock variator, stock drive face, 3000km belt - 120kph (74.5mph).
3. 11g sliders, Daytona variator, 14° drive face, 3700km belt - 139kph (86.4mph).
4. 11g sliders, Daytona variator, 14° drive face, new Daytona belt - 142kph (88.2mph).
5. 14g rollers, Daytona variator, stock drive face, new Daytona belt - 139kph (86.4mph).
6. 13g sliders, stock variator, stock drive face, 500km Daytona belt - 131kph (81.4mph).

Basically all the non stock configurations have achieved a max road speed of 115kph, although 120kph has been possible by tucking down a light hill.
I thought I liked config 2 the best because of the acceleration, but it was very revvy and I suspect now that it was too light as mentioned above.
Config 3/4 was meh, and I really didn't like it. I probably should've given it more time for the belt to bed in, but it wasn't great for performance or economy.
Config 5 was a really good balance of power and economy, and probably similar to what you guys enjoy with the NCY with 13g rollers.
I've only had one short ride with config 6, and it felt similar to config 5, except it was bogging down on launch, but the belt needs to adjust to the stock variator...

That'll do for a while unless I hate this current setup over the next couple of tanks.
Gav.

[BPT7594]

You really do your homework, Chicaboo. I saw an old me in you. Keep up.

[chicaboo]

Update:
The Daytona variator with 14g rollers returned a best fuel economy of 2.45L/100km (96mpg), which was even better than stock.

When I filled up yesterday, I also got back 2.45L/100km with the 13g sliders and stock variator that I've had in there for a while.
There wasn't actually a hugely noticeable difference between these two setups, apart from imaginary top speed on the stand...

[BPT7594]

I got 125 kph on the real road with kwn spring and front variator with 12gr rollers on a 61mm piston. That's without the rpm cut.
I don't have a lot of variators to work with so I tend to stay with stock and mix stuffs around.
Everything worked out so far.

[BPT7594]

Sorry that's with the rpm limiter.

[chicaboo]

My stock variator is geared to 130kph indicated with 13g sliders, so it's fast enough for me.
Otherwise my Daytona is geared to 152kph with 14g rollers, so it's good if I want lower revs to save fuel.