The Honda PCX / Forza / ADV150 / SH Forums

The study I was looking for using our same scooters.

http://www.iihs.org/media/d9b615d8-7720 ... clnk&gl=us

What an eye opener. Yes - ABS brakes help reduce fatality rates somewhat but only generally and the generality is not true for some make/models among other factors. Many other factors, though, are much more significant in affecting fatality rates. Drivers age, make/model, where you live (vehicle density), and vehicle age. In fact, vehicle make/model is ten fold more significant in determining fatality rates than whether the bike has ABS brakes.

So if you are under 25 years old, live up north or drive in bad weather, ride in a big city, and drive a Triumph Thunderbird, I wouldn't worry about ABS brakes.

ABS brakes are unimportant for the Honda Reflex (and probably the Forza which is similar). The Silver Wings have over twice the fatality rate of the Reflex even with ABS brakes. Yikes.

Another generality from this study is the models tested with both ABS and combination braking systems faired better than with ABS alone but for very limited models. Unfortunately, the combination brakes didn't exist for our models for the test periods. I see why the US has not required ABS brakes on all motorcycles as a blanket law. Since the EU has (for bikes above 125cc) , they will probably come here as standard soon anyways.

Video demonstration of ABS is proof enough for me. Statistical generality study will come in handy if I run out of toilet paper.

For some people it doesn't matter what kind of safety feature you give them, they will still find a way to kill themselves.

Do you want to be generally dead or generally alive?

There is so much more going on here that the study does not address other than than what model bike you are riding and whether or not it has ABS. Silverwings are probably ridden two up and on average much faster and spend more miles on out of town cross country trips in bad weather than any other scooter as a group. Riding two up doubles your chance of a fatality for any given wreck right off the bat. But there is no mention of this variable being part of the study. And the people that ride those conditions as opposed to just scooting around town to buy some milk will be more likely to order the bike with ABS.

I think sendler2112 is on the right path: it's about demographics, not bike design. An ABS Silverwing is very likely to be a long-distance touring bike, so it's far more likely to be caught in bad weather in the middle of a ride. There's also some psychology working here, a person who paid extra for ABS may be less timid about riding in bad weather. And his point about two-up riding is also valid, both in terms of average fatality risk and in terms of (again) who is willing to spend extra to get ABS.

Was the IIHS study trying to isolate the effectiveness of ABS from other factors, or was it merely trying to correlate bike choice with insurance risk? I think there's no question that ABS is effective in it's intended role, so the question is really about how ABS correlates with other risk factors.

One of the largest motorcycle insurer's in the US (Progressive - mine) gives no discount for ABS brakes on motorcycles but they do on plenty of other stuff like multi motorcycle (can only ride one at a time) or home ownership (less likely to get stolen). My insurance broker said there is just not the claim data to support it yet for all makes and models. He said a few insurance companies give a token 5% in the US. He is fully aware of these studies and many others.

The other flaw with this particular study is it reports only fatalities. The vast majority of motocycle fatalities (except for super sport riders who are their own worst enemies) are multi vehicle collisions where the rider didn't even have time to use the brakes. Oncoming traffic turning across into you, entering the same way traffic running right into you or pulling out right in front of you, and getting nailed from the rear while already stopped. Including injury and or damage claims would be a much better metric to show how effective ABS is at preventing single vehicle wrecks which will quite often not be fatal.

sendler2112 wrote:The other flaw with this particular study is it reports only fatalities. The vast majority of motocycle fatalities (except for super sport riders who are their own worst enemies) are multi vehicle collisions where the rider didn't even have time to use the brakes. Oncoming traffic turning across into you, entering the same way traffic running right into you or pulling out right in front of you, and getting nailed from the rear while already stopped. Including injury and or damage claims would be a much better metric to show how effective ABS is at preventing single vehicle wrecks which will quite often not be fatal.

The other flaw might be that riding bikes is great. For the sake of balance perhaps there is an argument from those who aren't posting because they aren't analy retentive and are riding for fun

I posted this thread because I was trying to determine how much value should be associated with the Forza ABS brakes option which was available to me but at a considerable cost compared to the one without I purchased. I was able to determine from the studies that while it has some value overall for motorcycles, it is not anywhere near what the difference is in price I would have had to pay IMO. Despite the other factors, if I saw a large jump in fatality rates for the Reflex or Silver Wing without ABS I would have paid more for the option. As it was the fatality rate for the Reflex didn't change and the Silver Wing went up with ABS brakes. No one knows for sure why from this study but the sample sizes were statistically significant over years. Anyway, it was just a basic cost/benefit/risk analysis.

A few people I know have had OH SHIT moments and their bike survived without a scratch because of ABS.
If ABS stops you throwing it down the road even once it has paid for itsself.
Like I said before you're seeking to justify saving a few bob.
I hope you don't regret it.....

SECoda wrote: it was just a basic cost/benefit/risk analysis.

You're kidding, right? You based your decision to not buy ABS on this nonsense?

I simply wouldn't buy a scooter without ABS.
Now that its widely available there's no reason to be without it.

Not exactly. I already had negotiated both bikes and bought the non-ABS one. I was just trying to justify it. I work with health care insurance risk analysis and my conclusion is correct. However, GN2 is absolutely correct in that I am taking a personal risk in the decision. Heck, I built and fly a homebuilt airplane and that entails some risks. I spent $6500 on a ballistic parachute to mitigate some unlikely risk in the event of a catastrophic failure or collision. On homebuilt airplanes, though, the fatality rates are a bit higher (a lot higher) than those in this study for our scooters. The good news from the study is our mid-sized Honda scooters appear to have a low fatality rate compared to a lot of other motorcycles. The bad news is if you fit one of the other demographics that radically increase the rate then a lot more caution may be required. (young, heavy traffic density, heavy/powerful bike, etc.) It's all probabilities. There is still a slight chance that the ABS brakes could save you even with the right bike and right demographics. Crap happens.

If ABS was an option on a PCX, I would have gone for it.

He saved $1,700 by taking the bike without ABS. I would have done the same thing if those were the only two choices. But I hope nobody here will continue to go around quoting a faulty study saying that certain cursed bikes are more dangerous with ABS than without.

sendler2112 wrote:He saved $1,700 by taking the bike without ABS.

Wonder why non-ABS was so cheap...?
Is it because no-one wants them...?

$1,700 is an awful lot for an ABS option. The £200 extra for the SHi with ABS is well worth it.

gn2 wrote:Wonder why non-ABS was so cheap...?
Is it because no-one wants them...?

ABS is a rare option on these small displacement bikes in the USA so the dealers gouge for it. Of the 20-30 CBR250R's my local dealer has sold, 0 were ordered with ABS. And it only adds $500.
People in the USA tend to ride their bikes as toys, not transportation, and only in good weather. California is one of the few states that condone lane splitting, and seems to be the only area where people realize the advantages in time and money of commuting on two wheels.
Here is an idea for a new thread by our resident highway safety analyst: Should we adopt nationwide lane splitting in the USA? How about Tiered Licensing? Should we keep handing over a 190mph 1000cc super bike to rookie 18 year olds that think lane splitting means on one wheel at 80 mph?

From 2016, all motorcycles/scooters above 125cc (I think) sold new in Europe (EU) will have to have ABS as standard.