gn2 wrote:silverantec, I have read your explanation carefully and have made enquiries among family members who really understand physics and it turns out I was completely mistaken and you sir are correct. I apologise unreservedly, I was just plain wrong.
GN2, did someone hack your account and post this. It can't possibly be you. Please know that I am only joking. I am glad you are a part of the forums.
Quite frankly, I lost interest in this thread a while ago because: 1) I have neither the desire or ability to fiddle with the brakes, and 2) I have neither the desire or time for this much reading.
2010 Honda PCX 125 in Thailand (White) - "White Lightning"Sold in Sept 2017 2009 Yamaha Majesty YP400 in USA (Metalic Titanium) - "The Throne"Sold in June 2020
honkerman: (quote: For someone who accuses other people of being keyboard warriors, you type an awful lot. I got bored after the first paragraph and am moving on to other things.)
And that, sir, is the reason that when you type your opinion you are as a dry canteen to a thirsty man. You have to put something in to get something out. Worse than being ignorant is when the truth is carefully explained so a child might understand it you have not the good graces to admit your ignorance and flawed logic nor apologize for exerting error over sound principals.
JohnL; you are welcome to condense it so it is still clear and correct. If training manuals could be kept to just one page or a few lines I imagine they would be.
gn2; I think you could have knocked me over with a feather when I read your reply. I sincerely appreciate your decency and courtesy in saying that.
To everyone else I apologize for the long posts. When truth or facts are unclear it can take time patience and effort to make them clear. To those who have followed all this silently I thank you for persevering. Happy & safe riding to you all.
We all read and post on what interests us. I don't have a opinion one way or another on the braking system or the discoveries on this thread,I too just find mine stops fine in comparison with other bikes that Have owned. If I find that changes, then I would be interested in searching all the posts on braking .To each his own.
Silver, I have not insulted you, yet you choose to name call. I came to this conversation and remained decent. You have chosen the low road.
Also, the fact that you fell for GN2's sarcasm tells me you're not as familiar with the people of the forum as you may think.
I'm not going to visit this conversation again. I'm also not going to glorify your distasteful behavior with remarks in kind. I was raised better than that. It's possible to disagree with someone without attempting to demean them. You have demonstrated incapacity, or at least an indisposition toward such. So good day to you sir.
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2013 Honda PCX-150 (Angry Hornet) - Leo Vince Corsa Exhaust, NCY Variator (13g Rollers), NCY shocks, Givi D322S windscreen, NCY drum brake actuator arm, Denali Soundbomb mini horn
2006 Piaggio Beverly 250 (Rosa)
@ kramnala58, never say never, right? I Did a Double take reading it...or was it three times? Gave me warm fuzzies, and his apology wasn't even to me!
Nice of you, gn2...Nice!
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one of the first things I noticed with my new scooter way back the that the CBS braking system
didn't quite work as I was used to-in my brain bank no braking to the front was sometimes was better
learned how to live with the enforced technology and it's Ok
again silverantec took the time and made the effort to reverse that technology
for me the effort is to much to undertake I'd rather adapt
homie wrote:I'm glad I never opened this thread and at a glance I don't think I'll start now, Just tell me everyone's brakes are still working.
Homie - After a thread like this, I think Silverantec deserves an honourable mention in your PCX Whisperer's list.
2010 Honda PCX 125 in Thailand (White) - "White Lightning"Sold in Sept 2017 2009 Yamaha Majesty YP400 in USA (Metalic Titanium) - "The Throne"Sold in June 2020
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Just a point of information, I own a forumwebsite for marine owners and have been a moderator on three others, I went to a seminar For forum owners and administrators a year ago.
The statistic I remember is 80% of the people reading an opinion post stop after the first paragraph, if it's more than one paragraph. (How to and DIY posts not included)... It really pays to be succinct on social media if you want to make a point . Probably due to the short attention span that social media has created.....
Jge64 wrote:........ 80% of the people reading an opinion post stop after the first paragraph .....
That seems about right.
Did they mention anything about the length of video clips? My limit is about 2½-3½ mins.
2010 Honda PCX 125 in Thailand (White) - "White Lightning"Sold in Sept 2017 2009 Yamaha Majesty YP400 in USA (Metalic Titanium) - "The Throne"Sold in June 2020
Oh yeah videos are just as bad, a couple minutes in, and most people are gone....A lot of people simply won't click on them because they're afraid of viruses. I think I remember a number like 50% of people won't click on anything, they just surf or post.... i'll look it up in the info they gave me .
Jge64 wrote:Just a point of information, I own a forumwebsite for marine owners and have been a moderator on three others, I went to a seminar For forum owners and administrators a year ago.
The statistic I remember is 80% of the people reading an opinion post stop after the first paragraph, if it's more than one paragraph. (How to and DIY posts not included)... It really pays to be succinct on social media if you want to make a point . Probably due to the short attention span that social media has created.....
I totally agree, to the point I don't have time to go back and find out why this thread ran so long or the posters recommendation as a whisperer but I'll take your word for it. Speaking of words what percent of people know what "succinct" means Jge64? did your seminar cover the usefulness of such language in public forums we don't be talking that hoity round my town.
Jge64 wrote:Just a point of information, I own a forumwebsite for marine owners and have been a moderator on three others, I went to a seminar For forum owners and administrators a year ago.
The statistic I remember is 80% of the people reading an opinion post stop after the first paragraph, if it's more than one paragraph. (How to and DIY posts not included)... It really pays to be succinct on social media if you want to make a point . Probably due to the short attention span that social media has created.....
So you say you have moderator experience, forum ownership experience, and have attended a seminar - don't you have anything else to say? What is your point?
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As per my statement on post length to JohnL: Quote: you are welcome to condense it so it is still clear and correct. If training manuals could be kept to just one page or a few lines I imagine they would be.
I do not disagree with your statement on short attention spans to long posts but to the more literacy educated than myself please show me the short version which just as clearly makes each and every point I made. I always believe that when faulting someone you should be prepared to demonstrate the correct way to do better. It is easy to mock but sometimes harder to fully & correctly show the thing that you preach. PM me if you like with it. I doubt this thread could take any more.
silverantec wrote:First off for the benefit of everyone, the test it out on wet grass was more or less a tongue in cheek thing to one or two who seem to indicate I am full of it. It is not that I expect someone to do it. (but I would like to see the video if they do try it.) 2nd thing is that before I had separated my own brakes one end for each lever I had not been particularly aware that my rear brake was working very little compared to the front Brake. I only became aware because after separating them I discovered no amount of effort could lock up the rear wheel, but more significantly for me, it requires a lot of effort to get modest braking effort from the rear wheel.
Now only a fool would try to convince anyone that separating the brakes could in any way cause a reduced performance of the rear brake since leverage ratios do not change. But being well aware of how well the bike slowed with little left lever effort compared to once separated and realizing the rear brake now separated has fairly poor retardation effect with similar lever pressure applied it seemed only reasonable to encourage others to be aware of a risk that they too might actually be having the front wheel do most of the braking when they think they are "balancing" brake effort using the 2 levers. I used to have access to a decelerometer which would have been good to have now to put the braking effort into figures, but that might be a little difficult for me to now get hold of one. However I offered my opinion on the effort the rear wheel is giving based on my experience as a tester which it is a fact that my experience & professional training makes me a "professional" witness in a court. (Just like a doctor or surgeon is in medical matters.) And yes I have done that often enough too.
Now lets settle the matter of the front caliper with one master cylinder now doing the work. It has been established through this thread and is in the mechanics manual that the Left lever operated the center piston of the 3 in the front caliper, which is one of the two smaller pistons. (About 22 mm dia) (the larger piston is about 26 mm dia & that plus one 22 mm piston were operated by the right lever). Thanks to the picture offered by Oyabun near end of page 1 of this thread we can see that the larger piston is actually the "Trailing" piston when travelling forwards. (We might come back to this later)
So now I have 2 x 22 mm pistons and 1 x 26 mm piston operating from one master cylinder (MC for short huh). A MC produces hydraulic pressure equally throughout everything from the hose the fluid travels through to each piston to which it applies pressure. So if we had a Hydraulic fluid pressure gauge in the line and apply 100 lbs per square inch pressure (lbs=pounds in the old scale. we shall from here on refer to this as psi) then 100 psi (of fluid pressure)is being applied to each piston. The only thing that makes a difference is the diameter of each piston as to the force that each piston exerts on the brake pad. So lets pretend the the 2 smaller pistons are exactly 1 square inch surface area. And the Larger piston is 1/4 surface area larger.
With 100 psi fluid pressure the 2 smaller pistons are applying 100 lbs of force each. The larger piston is applying 125 lbs of force. Why? because the extra 1/4 of surface area converts an extra 1/4 of the 100 psi of fluid pressure to direct pushing force on the brake pads.If you have with your CBS intact 2 master cylinders, or 5 or ten master cylinders each applying 100 psi then throughout each brake line you still only have 100 psi of fluid pressure to convert into pushing force. More fluid pressure = greater piston pushing force. But more master cylinders each applying 100 psi to the fluid for separate pistons does not equal more fluid psi to convert to pushing force. The only thing that will give greater piston pushing force when maximum fluid pressure has been achieved is larger caliper pistons to convert the available fluid pressure into physical pushing force. (Fluid force x area = applied force. Doubling the MC pistons applying the same force does not increase the applied force.) (Double the surface area to which the force is being applied doubles the applied mechanical force.)
gn2 this was all for you and anyone else who might agree with you. As this is basic mechanics of which I respectfully offered my qualifications in by, all means if you still disagree please offer to assist me in re-writing all the engineering books. Look mate I am not trying to be offensive but as I said; basic mechanics.
honkerman: (Quote: I see what you are saying. The primary master cylinder (the dinky teeny weeny one) is still exerting the same amount of force, but that force is now dispersed along three pistons instead of two. It seems logical that there would be a reduction in braking force, since that tiny little master cylinder was only designed to work the two larger pistons.
A simple solution would be to introduce a larger master cylinder capable of exerting a sufficient amount of force, something from say a CBR 250 or something of that nature.
It's also good to remember that even expert technicians with years upon years of experience are capable of making mistakes and we need to retain the humility to accept that possibility.)
You really give me a good laugh here mate. To go one step further for you beyond the above explanation, if you double the diameter of the master cylinder piston but it takes the maximum strength of the average hand to apply the said 100 psi then all other things being equal you will move double the fluid volume movement in the stroke of the MC piston however you will halve the applied fluid pressure. You will effectively now have 50 psi for fluid pressure on the same surface areas and halve the caliper pistons applied force. Fluid movement volume is not the
issue. All the pistons move only a few thousandths of an inch. Less than the thickness of a razor blade. My right brake lever has no appreciable additional travel with my setup over the standard setup. I have also fitted (certified) SS braided brake hoses. 100 psi is 100 psi is 100 psi. It matters not the source nor the number of sources. Is having a sound knowledge of hydraulics and mechanical principals, applying it on my own things, and offering a warning when I see a potential danger to the unwary and the trusting (in everything being golden as produced by a manufacturer), the act of a non humble person. Do you tell your doctor to be more humble when you go to him or your dentist because they know something and practice something that you yourself are not qualified to do.
You and gn2 should now either refute what I have herein explained or consider an apology for {gn2: Yes, absolutely 100% If you remove the CBS master cylinder (as you have done) the amount of force which can be imparted on the front brake caliper is reduced.} & for {honkerman: I see what you are saying. The primary master cylinder (the dinky teeny weeny one)is still exerting the same amount of force, but that force is now dispersed along three pistons instead of two.It seems logical that there would be a reduction in braking force, since that tiny little master cylinder was only designed to work the two larger pistons.A simple solution would be to introduce a larger master cylinder capable of exerting a sufficient amount of force, something from say a CBR 250 or something of that nature. It's also good to remember that even expert technicians with years upon years of experience are capable of making mistakes and we need to retain the humility to accept that possibility.
You are fast enough to apply "what you feel" as fact; now that I have applied the facts are you as fast to offer the apology. I am sorry that the application of correct hydraulic and mechanical principals and the good intent behind offering warning to the unaware of a potential for risk is evidence of my lack of humility.
Coming back to the Trailing Larger piston: As shown in my examples: The larger piston with the same psi behind it produces greater pushing effort. This also translates to being the first piston to move when pressure is applied. As in my example the additional 25lbs force with 100 psi fluid pressure is more than enough to ensure the trailing edge of the pad makes first contact with the disc. Not important but just helps ensure the leading edge is not so inclined to want to bite into any holes, grooves or disc wave edges. I can think of no other particular reason for it as most calipers I have come into contact with have tended to have equal diameter pistons, but feel free to correct me if there is another reason offered by the manufacturer.
chicaboo: When I rode my scooter out of the dealership the first lights I stopped at 100 mts up the road I experienced rear brake warp, jerky uneven braking. I thought new bike and all I am being overly sensitive. But sadly it was warped giving jerky uneven braking each time I applied the left brake lever. I made a special point of testing it on very smooth roads with no traffic then contacted the dealership after I got home. Over the next month they tried to say it would sort itself out if I keep riding it and half a dozen other things.(like it will wear in. Have you ever had a car with disc warp vibrations "wear in" again. That would be nice and save people lots of money machining or replacing discs). The service manager when I contacted him said straight away that he would order another wheel but I suspect someone higher up over rode him and hoped I would just go away. I actually had to contact a solicitor, the office of fair trading and Honda Australia where I informed them that in the event of my ever having an accident where anything to do with braking could be considered the cause of the accident I would lay it all at their feet and sue them. They had a new wheel within a week or two from then. It would be nice to be able to think that cleaning something would improve it but with both wheels the only difference after wheel replacement was I no longer had jerky uneven braking.
And chicaboo: (quote: Two brake levers operating 3 pistons will exert more force than one brake lever operating the same three pistons. The old adage "many hands make light work" applies here.)The right brake lever will still deliver the same effort, but will be now distributed over the three pistons without the potential benefit added from the left brake lever to supplement it. The braking feel may be enhanced for light to moderate braking applications, but the maximum braking effort will be diminished. This difference may be addressed to some margin by using a braided brake line to the middle cylinder, but not entirely. Or you can just squeeze harder... And when you do, you are asking more from the one master cylinder and putting more pressure on it every time.)
Let me ask you this simple question; When you stand on scales are you lighter or heavier when you stand on both feet instead of with one foot.
Now I have already stated my use of SS braided hoses. Do you too in light of the explanations or plain and correct hydraulic & mechanical principals wish to stick with these statements you have made. Or do you as the others before you should, feel that some sort of correction or acknowledgement of your error should now be proffered.
Look I am actually glad everyone is very happy with their PCX's. Really. But does that make me a bad person for having concern and offering the warning. The fact that I unlinked my brakes has only affected my ability to control the bias of braking (for the better for me) exactly as I see fit with the exact knowledge of the effort each wheel is delivering. Neither is giving greater or lesser performance in my setup than they did with the CBS operational. But with the CBS no individual is definitively aware of the effort their own brakes is giving but has the blind assumption that all is good. For a concerned individual knowledge is power to control their own safety. And as I have more than once pointed out the PCX is a great scooter. So great that I like to do trips of many hours and a few hundred kilometers at a time. (I just have to make the seat better but am working on that. Despite being softer now I realize I need more seat area) But for city stuff 1/2 hour or so at a time it is awesome.
And WhiteNoise, you sir may call me anything but Late for Dinner. Thank you for your understanding of what I was trying to offer. Also since all changes done to the scooter have been performed by professionals, myself and various others who had input with their trades, and all parts are either certified (hoses) or of quality, the end product is no less safe than any other motor bike or scooter with independent front/rear brakes. As I have said more than once this is not an ABS that has been altered. And even with CBS a rider has front and rear separate control at their fingertips just as I have. The only difference is, "I know how much braking effort is performed by each wheel when I use my two brake levers". With CBS each person is exerting individual control to 2 levers with no true knowledge of the exact retardation effort each wheel (brake) is giving them, and a "she'll be right mate" hope that it is as balanced as they like to think it is. Good luck with that. Let no one say I have made my brakes better as I do not say that; I have just taken back the individual control which I am qualified to do and is not against our laws.
Please know that I am only joking. I am glad you are a part of the forums.
