Mario wrote: hit clutch with the numbers? and is it recommendable?
It is a nice quality replacement and comes with different springs to set a higher launch rpm to give you more jump in the first few feet upon take off.
Is a slow start / ride also possible with the hit clutch?
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:05 am
by Mario
Just received the Dr. Pulley sliders 23x18-19g
variations 19,04>19,08 gram
Total weight 114,36 gram
Length 17,9mm
Effective width 22,3mm
Effective height (diameter) 23,3mm
Mixed total weight 105,36 gram (the same total weight Ed use but with 1g lighter sliders and 1g heavier rollers)
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:08 am
by sendler2112
Mario wrote:Just received the Dr. Pulley sliders 23x18-19g
Effective width 22,3mm
Effective height (diameter) 23,3mm
It's interesting to try to measure the sliders because they are so complex in shape. The real effective width at the control surfaces that halt their movement in the low gear and the high gear position is actually even less than you are measuring. The only way to really know the functional dimension of those points which for example for the high gear would be about 20- 30 degrees clock wise from where you have measured it, would be to somehow measure the radius at that point and double it.
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So you can see how the sliders are designed to move much farhter through the available travel on both ends of the ramps to provide a lower low gear and a higher high gear ratio than a round roller can.
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Which will be totally nullified on the low end by mixing them with round rollers.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:25 am
by Mario
Well not much improvement with the Slider/Roller combo next step will be all sliders.
It's a few tenths quicker to 80 and 100 now with the increased pulling rpm of 6,900 versus 6,400.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:33 pm
by Mario
It was not what I expected, but let's see what 6 19g sliders will do.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:13 pm
by sendler2112
The other video of the sliders was using 20gm and pulling 6,400 to 6,900 rpm so your 19 gm sliders should jump off the line much better than with the 3 rollers in there and fly right up to 7,000.
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I still wonder what the power curve of the engine looks like. I have been searching for a dyno print out with a locked variator for the Forza but they are a rare thing to find for a scooter because of the CVT. The fastest full throttle acceleration will come from tuning the variator to pull at the rpm of the power peak wherever that is. Here is one for the PCX.
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Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:18 am
by you you
sendler2112 wrote:The other video of the sliders was using 20gm and pulling 6,400 to 6,900 rpm so your 19 gm sliders should jump off the line much better than with the 3 rollers in there and fly right up to 7,000.
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I still wonder what the power curve of the engine looks like. I have been searching for a dyno print out with a locked variator for the Forza but they are a rare thing to find for a scooter because of the CVT. The fastest full throttle acceleration will come from tuning the variator to pull at the rpm of the power peak wherever that is. Here is one for the PCX.
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Would it be fastest at peak power rather than peak torque?
What I don't understand is that so many Forza's reach easily speed's beyond 130km/h, and Robert and me (both with a new 2015 European model) can hardly reach (max) 130km/h
Maybe a Honda dealer change the ECU settings after the first 1000km service interval ? (But Robert has already 6000km on it)
Maybe we have other ECU settings or/and a other CVT to reach newer Emission Standards
I see postings coming up that also the newest PCX are slower than the older one's without any info from Honda that they have changed something.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 4:39 am
by Mario
The photo's taken from the standard rollers to the slider/roller combination change.
you you wrote:Would it be fastest at peak power rather than peak torque?
This is a good question that continually comes up and which was discussed in a long thread at CBR250.net where we went through all different types of vehicle from motorcycles to airplanes with variable pitch props. Because of the torque multiplication in the transmission with various gear ratios, the highest rear wheel torque, and fastest acceleration, occur with the engine at peak power. Not peak torque. Because peak power is always at a much higher engine rpm you are using a much lower gear with more multiplication for any vehicle speed.
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The author of this paper has his heart in the right place I suppose but some of the wording and terms they came up with could be better such as: why are they calling the shifting phase of the CVT where the pulleys are constantly changing to maintain a constant engine rpm the "1 to 1 phase". And they talk about the contra spring as setting "the engagement rpm" of the trans which is not in itself true at all. The contra spring balances with whatever weights you put in, along with the torque slot, to set the shifting rpm. Increasing the contra spring rate is similar to changing to lighter weights along with increasing the tension on the belt for any given shifting rpm which isn't usually a good thing. I would sooner call the engagement point the rpm at which the clutch starts to grab and move the bike forward on take off.
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Mario wrote:What I don't understand is that so many Forza's reach easily speed's beyond 130km/h, and Robert and me (both with a new 2015 European model) can hardly reach (max) 130km/h
Maybe a Honda dealer change the ECU settings after the first 1000km service interval ? (But Robert has already 6000km on it)
Maybe we have other ECU settings or/and a other CVT to reach newer Emission Standards
I see postings coming up that also the newest PCX are slower than the older one's without any info from Honda that they have changed something.
Top speed is primarily limited by air resistance versus power if you are not hitting the rev limiter like the stock PCX does. So others that are getting higher than you are more aero on the bike due to a smaller physical build, tighter fitting jacket, or by crouching down out of the wind as much as possible. The 2015 PCX has a lower top speed than earlier models beacause Honda changed to a lower final gear set. in the hub.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:08 am
by robertinino
Mario
with your new set up combo rollers-sliders there is no improve! what's happen?
I'm worried...........What Ed said?
The video of the Forza with the 17gm sliders did hit 150kph. Must be riding in a full tuck. The final gearing is about the same with 120 kph showing 7,600 rpm. The top gear limit is probably coming form the variator halves touching, rather than the sliders running out of travel in the ramps. See the photo showing the untouched metal around the outside edge of the variator.
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The Forza may benefit from filing down the inner flat of the variator the same as the PCX does in order to get the belt all the way to the outside when using the extra travel of all sliders in order to get the max final gearing as was discussed here.
. http://www.hondapcx.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3189
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His Forza would probably top out even faster if it had slightly longer gearing to make the top speed closer to the horsepower peak. At 8,600 rpm and 150 kph he is probably well past peak power
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It wasn't a smooth run as it looked like he was on and off the throttle a few times.
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17 grams is a bit light for fuel economy since it is not locking out the max gearing solidly until about 7,400 and 110 kph. But it would feel incredibly zippy and active around town and shave more than a second off of the 0-100 kph time with these light sliders. But it will probably still lock all the way out at lower speeds with less action of the torque slot when using milder throttle openings when cruising so there may not even be much of a change in economy.
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You can see the slight rise in rpm throughout the shifting phase that the OP is addressing by mixing sliders and rollers as his rpm in the video increases from 6,900 to 7,300. But this to me seems more of a technical observation than a problem. Is it worth giving up the increased range of gear ratio on the launch that the sliders provide in order to force a flatter shifting rpm by mixing in rollers? And if you file the vario, you may also get increased max gear ratio with the sliders also which will improve fuel economy and top speed.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:57 am
by Mario
With the 6x 19g Dr.Pulley sliders the Forza feels much more responsive and more fun to ride, top speed I have reached today was 135Km/h on the tachometer.
Btw, 120Km/h is actually 115Km/h GPS speed.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:13 am
by Mario
Especially for Sendler, 6x19g Dr.Pulley.
Re: Tuning the Forza 300 CVT
Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:39 am
by sendler2112
Looks good. Snaps right to 6,600 80-100 and then settles down to 5,300 cruising at 100 so no real loss of fuel efficiency. The first video shows barely a 400 rpm drift from 6,600 to 7,000 during the active phase before lock up. I always found in my PCX that the sliders seem to respond to changes faster than the rollers giving the bike a snappier feel. If you really want the best on ramp accel for the Forza, 17gm sliders might measure even a few tenths quicker with a pulling rpm above 7,000.
next step will be all sliders.
