New Hybrid Honda PCX coming?

[Greenmeenie]

Found this. Several webpages from Thailand, Japan & Greece talking about an EV/HV Honda PCX being announced this month at the Tokyo motor show. Interesting.

http://www.motomag.gr/news/nea-montela/honda-pcx-hybrid

With battery technology still to an unsatisfactory level to offer great autonomy and quick recharging, the intermediate stage called Hybrid Technology could have more direct application. Already hybrid cars are used on a large scale, since their internal combustion engine allows them to move even when the batteries have no energy reserves. On two wheels we already have several electric motorcycles, but so far there has not been any hybrid technology. And this is quite strange to tell the truth, because hybrid technology has a number of advantages that would be useful in some categories of two-wheelers. So the fact that Honda has the concept of a PCX with Hybrid technology, probably should not give us an impression. The logical thing would be to have an entire class of hybrid scooters already in production, by all companies.

[Greenmeenie]

This is a supposed pic of the hybrid PCX

[montliz44]

Great idea. Sounds expensive, though. That could be a problem, saleswise.

Johnny

[homie]

no, no, no... don't put a two thousand dollar battery on the scooter and expect people to replace it every 3 years. It already runs for peanuts

[gn2]

Problem is that there are political moves afoot to cease manufacture of internal combustion engines.

Oxford has recently unveiled plans to ban fossil fuel vehicles from its city centre.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-brita ... KKBN1CH1IQ

Can't see the point of a petrol hybrid 125 scooter myself, it would be far better all electric.

But... the PCX lends itself quite neatly to hybridisation, the ACG starter could be beefed up, add a decompressor and hey presto, the starter is the motor, and with regen it's also the brakes

[TheMaverick]

no, no, no... don't put a two thousand dollar battery on the scooter and expect people to replace it every 3 years. It already runs for peanuts

Screw it - if I'm forced to go electric I'm going to buy an LS218 lightening for bike!

[PCX150Rider]

Electric motorcycles are torque machines and quiet. I rode an electric bicycle a few times and even that amazed me on how much power it had. . .while it had power.

[TheMaverick]

Electric motorcycles are torque machines and quiet. I rode an electric bicycle a few times and even that amazed me on how much power it had. . .while it had power.

Like this one (the "218" bit comes from it's top speed - in MPH!)



Here's a longer/better video

[Gil]

I think it would be cool. It should be easy with the PCX, lithium battery plus bigger stator/alternator and beefier stator controller and done. The life of batteries is getting better every year. The life of the battery should be at least 10 years, if they use Nickel Metal Hydride, much more if they use lithium. If Honda is thinking of doing a hybrid PCX, i'm sure it will similar to their Honda Insight Hybrid tech. Which also means that it doesn't need a huge battery to be effective. I wonder how they would price it though.

Gil

[homie]

Mavrick as cool as that electric bike is, I'll still take the original Lightning CityX XB9SX. Actually I could get 5 or 6 of them for the money. I guess the trademark rights must have expired with Buell. We just can't sit atop an electric motor and still call ourselves bikers can we? Maybe we can with a scooter... someday

[TheMaverick]

Mavrick as cool as that electric bike is, I'll still take the original Lightning CityX XB9SX. Actually I could get 5 or 6 of them for the money. I guess the trademark rights must have expired with Buell. We just can't sit atop an electric motor and still call ourselves bikers

Looks nice.

I could think of several names I'd probably call myself on an LS-218:

* Lucky

* Scared-sh*tless

are two that immediately spring to mind!

[homie]

Do you remember the suicidal two stroke superbikes and the video of their debut on the race circuit...

[TheMaverick]

Do you remember the suicidal two stroke superbikes and the video of their debut on the race circuit...

Can't say I've seen that one.

[raito]

Not sure if I like a hybrid PCX, but I'm already saving up for an all-electric PCX.. to be ready in a decade or two maybe..

[TheMaverick]

Not sure if I like a hybrid PCX, but I'm already saving up for an all-electric PCX.. to be ready in a decade or two maybe..

It may be so advanced that it could even have it's own on-board petrol generator

[Oyabun]

Great find. I think the general idea is great, but I have some doubt it will be in the PCX.
Keep in mind it might be the luxury scooter of SE Asia, but the absolute entry level in Europe - which hasn't even been fitted with already available abs of the platform (it is avail on both the SH, and NSS 125 built around the PCX engine, dynastarter, rear suspension platform and has ABS by default) just to keep it positioned as the entry level workhorse.
On the other hand the new global platform engine came in the PCX first also - so there is a slight chance to it.

On two wheels we already have several electric motorcycles, but so far there has not been any hybrid technology.

In fact, the Piaggio MP3 plug-in hybrid is available since september 2009. It is not particularly successful though. The original idea came from the fact that in Italy many historic city centers are closed for internal combustion engines, therefore the wall chargeable plug-in battery which allows for roughly 20 km of all electric travel at a max speed of 35km/h.
The main issue is the weight of the vehicle. The Mp3 is not featherweight to start with putting 210 kg on the scales. The plug in battery and electric motor adds significant plus, arriving to 250 kg. Propelled by a 125cc 11kw petrol and a 2.6kw electic engine. In short it is a hog. Later models came with a 250cc engine to be a bit less dead in the water with depleted batteries, but it never became a success.

And this is quite strange to tell the truth, because hybrid technology has a number of advantages that would be useful in some categories of two-wheelers. So the fact that Honda has the concept of a PCX with Hybrid technology, probably should not give us an impression. The logical thing would be to have an entire class of hybrid scooters already in production, by all companies.

True, but it might not be as easy as some thinks.
First of all, there are no big gains to be had on a machine already pushing 100mpg. Any additional weight to the PCX will contribute to higher consumption effectively decreasing the benefits. Just see the forza 125, what has roughly 35kg overweight compared to the PCX, and despite the more advanced 4 valve head on the same block it cannot replicate the consumption details of the PCX.
Second, it will add significant cost. Some mentioned that the acg starter could be used as hybrid electric engine. Unfortunately it is not that easy. The acg has a capacity of 305watts as a generator, and due to physics, it could not be much stronger while used as an electric motor either. So it needs an upgrade anyway. However the bigger issue is that a hybrid traction system needs regenerative breaking to recharge the batteries - what needs to have a ton of changes to be done on the PCX. Throttle by wire and brake by wire to start with, and the traditional variomatic gearbox with the mechanical auto clutch of a scooter is not particularly good in transmitting engine breaking either. Without these it would be difficult to use the acg as a motor. Piaggio uses an electric motor built to the gearbox of the scooter so it is good to be used both as a motor and as a regenerative use generator, but there is no such easy to provision possibility on the pcx as of today.

Essentially what I'm saying it would be great, but it is not easy and needs significant changes to the platform in my opinion. Also at the same time might raise the cost of the bike for not too much benefits, and potentially lower reliability.
I think introducing the already available 4 valve cyl head and abs on the PCX would add lot more benefits and boost sales more than a hybrid version.

[TheMaverick]

First of all, there are no big gains to be had on a machine already pushing 100mpg. Any additional weight to the PCX will contribute to higher consumption effectively decreasing the benefits. Just see the forza 125, what has roughly 35kg overweight compared to the PCX, and despite the more advanced 4 valve head on the same block it cannot replicate the consumption details of the PCX.
Second, it will add significant cost. Some mentioned that the acg starter could be used as hybrid electric engine. Unfortunately it is not that easy. The acg has a capacity of 305watts as a generator, and due to physics, it could not be much stronger while used as an electric motor either. So it needs an upgrade anyway. However the bigger issue is that a hybrid traction system needs regenerative breaking to recharge the batteries - what needs to have a ton of changes to be done on the PCX. Throttle by wire and brake by wire to start with, and the traditional variomatic gearbox with the mechanical auto clutch of a scooter is not particularly good in transmitting engine breaking either. Without these it would be difficult to use the acg as a motor. Piaggio uses an electric motor built to the gearbox of the scooter so it is good to be used both as a motor and as a regenerative use generator, but there is no such easy to provision possibility on the pcx as of today.

Essentially what I'm saying it would be great, but it is not easy and needs significant changes to the platform in my opinion. Also at the same time might raise the cost of the bike for not too much benefits, and potentially lower reliability.
I think introducing the already available 4 valve cyl head and abs on the PCX would add lot more benefits and boost sales more than a hybrid version.

In addition to those challenges that you mention in your excellent post, I'd also have to wonder if they'd need to compromise storage space - that would be a serious turn-off for me immediately.

[iceman]

Mosty it comes down to what governments will allow in future. Many governents are trying to show some movement to do something, and fossil fuels are not forwever along with the back-lash against artifical made fuel (as it causes many other issues to get the final product).

That is why large parts of europe are already announcing plans to ban or severly limit petroleum fueled vehicles in the next 5-15 years, and why taxes will rise on such vehicles. We've heard cities in the UK are due to have such limits/bans, and I believe France and other countries are doing similar. Expect 2 wheel motorbiles and scooters to be hit with higher taxes and congestion charges (the mayor of London has been pondering a congestion charge on motorbikes for some years - it will add £15+ to journeys across parts of London a day at current prices, so stop many people from using them to commute - too expensive)

They seem to hush up the fact that to get electric vehicles into production, the impact is much larger on the environment overall than normal vehicles (widely known but not often mentioned). That said, fossil fuels will not last forever so changes have to come.

[springer1]

I just don't want no stinking electric vehicles- LoL. Each to their own, if people want electric, then I'm glad they have options to get the choice they prefer. Seriously. But for me - I wanna engine - cause I wanna change oil and adjust valves and be able to fuss about stuff like that with friends. And I don't want no electric shock treatments.

[Mel46]

Congestion charge?? What's next, breathing charge?? Or maybe a sidewalk tax?? ... they already have a road tax, so now they need to move on to anything else that you could do. How about a shoe tax, or maybe they would call it a walking charge.
I understand that there are problems to be solved, but it is going to reach a point in the future where only the rich will be driving, or walking or shopping, because everyone else won't be able to afford it. The problem with that is that most of the world's population falls into the "poor" category, so taxes will end up being a better way of keeping the population "down" instead of fixing problems.
Right now, in our area, they are expanding a Federal Highway by adding a toll lane which also reduces one of the already available lanes that our taxes have already paid for. They will call it the 'Fast Lane' and only those who can afford it will get to work faster. Guess who gets to pay for the construction of that road that the rich get to use...
So the real question is 'How do you change the habits of the world equally?' Taxes don't do that. Mass transit might, if everyone is forced to use it equally, instead of just the poor.