Tuning the Forza 300 CVT

[Mario]

Update,

I ordered the following from ebay Germany.

[sendler2112]

Yes, you will regain most of the topend back......
going to all sliders dropped your gearing right across the entire range of the variator.

The three rollers will be taller than the three sliders and will restore the original gearing so you won't redline before you reach 85.

Why would using all sliders drop the longest gearing on the Forza at rpms above lockout when sliders always give more top speed on every other scooter they are used with including the PCX? Does the Forza use some kind of odd size that the sliders don't come in?

[BRed]

If you've read the thread, then you know 23x18 Honda rollers are 23.27mm
23x18 DR Pulley sliders are 22.35mm across the same dimension.

if you check closely with your PCX weights and compare them to other sized weights, you will find that each size of rollers and their equivalent slider have a different ratio in this area.
Some are taller, some are shorter.....NONE are the same.

most aftermarket rollers and sliders are smaller to hedge their bet...
not only do they raise your shiftpoint, they lower starting gear.

With small underpowered scooters that's a good thing....
with Interstate capable scooters, not so much.

[vamootsman]

Do you have any thoughts or data on what would be an optimal combination for PCX 150? I'm running 12.5 gram rollers at the moment.

[sendler2112]

If you've read the thread, then you know 23x18 Honda rollers are 23.27mm
23x18 DR Pulley sliders are 22.35mm across the same dimension.

I know your mind is set but there is another critical dimension you have always overlooked when talking about the sliders. The control edge that stops the travel up the ramps is much thinner with the sliders since they are not round. So even though they offer a lower starting gear ratio for quicker take offs, they travel farther up the ramps than a round roller with a thicker dimension can. So, as hundreds of user's on all different forums have posted over the years, DrPulley sliders always provide a longer final gear than stock, and a higher top speed.
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As long as the variator outward travel doesn't come up against the drive face. Which it does on early PCX150 variators. Which stops the belt from moving all the way out to the edge regardless of what is pushing. My replacement OEM variator and face were different and seemed to allow .5mm over travel when I held them together off the bike with a new belt. So together with sliders, my top speed on the stand went up 8 mph to 78 and I now rev limit to 72 mph on the road.

[sendler2112]

Do you have any thoughts or data on what would be an optimal combination for PCX 150? I'm running 12.5 gram rollers at the moment.

You need a tach. Best accel with a PCX will be with weights set to pull at the power peak of 8,300 rpm. This is pretty high for fuel economy though unless your commute has you cruising at above 50 mph to get them locked out to the longest ratio. I'm running 12 gm sliders which were 8,000 rpm in the original variator, and 7,800 rpm with the new parts. I could have gone to 11 gm.

[Jge64]

I just installed the 13g dr pulley sliders on my new PCX. The change was SIGNIFICANT, much better acceleration which is needed here in south Florida traffic. Top end is still good, way over what I need around town. Took me 45 min to do and so far is the MVP of mods for me. I have no idea how it affected my mpg because I dont track that.

[BRed]

Sendler2112, in all your posts you're comparing a PCX that you need to run at 110% of the design specifications to reach the speed that YOU want...to a Forza 300 with twice the displacement and HP..

The main difference is you're running maxed out all the time.

With the Forza, all we're trying to achieve is 75-80% of it's design capability in less than 20 seconds....
again, we're tuning for different ends.
We still have some untapped reserve at highway speeds.

We just want to change the rpm at which a specific speed is reached.....
we will rarely (IF EVER?) be running balls to the wall, wide open throttle, like the PCX, just to reach cruising speed.

I would suggest that instead of saying that it can't possibly work as described, that you just try it, but since you don't have a Forza, that can't happen.

The point you're making is that DRP sliders in a PCX don't work exactly like sliders in a Forza...true that!

not all sliders or variators (or engines?) are created equal.

[sendler2112]

Just trying to clear up a couple misconceptions you have about the sliders so as not to mislead others.

[BRed]

The most misleading thing about this section of the Forum is that about half of the questions asked by Forza owners are answered by PCX owners....
I'm sure they have the best of intentions but it has resulted much mis-information here, some that is irrelevant and some that is bordering on dangerous, when applied to the Forza by an unsuspecting owner.

If I could get the results I want using 6 sliders, believe me, I would be using 6 sliders....
after testing every possible weight combination of sliders and observing their graphs, I wanted more.

You want faster top end, I want it ALL....but, I'm willing to compromise!
soooo.....best fuel mileage with best acceleration with best top end at lowest rpm.

That's what I want....whatever it takes!

[Mario]

Today I (shitty) mounted a Gopro on my Forza 300 abs (2015 model) to record 0 to 100km/h as a first reference, stopped at 120km/h because the Forza is new and only run 300Km.

0 to 100km/h +/- 12 sec

Any comment on this run Ed?

[Mario]

http://www.videodoubler.com/combo/saved/1251

[sendler2112]

Need to see more of what is happening between 40 kph and 100. Above 110 the trans is mostly locked out so there is little to see there except what the final gearing is producing for rpm vs speed. Make another video. Cruise at 40 kph to see where the tach is under light load. then gun it up to 60 kph. Then cruise at 60. Then gun it up to 80. Then cruise at 80. And so on up to 120. So we can see the balance and respnsivness of the weights in their ramps, the contra spring, and the torque slot.

[sendler2112]

The overall top gear ratio is about the same with the sliders so it is possible that the variator halves are touching when locked out. You can check this when the variator, face, and belt are in your hand by holding it all together to see if the belt lays down into the pulleys to the outer wear mark. The sliders must be lighter so they are pulling at a couple hundred rpm higher than the stock rollers which makes that bike faster. The sliders defintely build speed much more quickly off the line showing that they indeed have a lower gear ratio at lanch. And beat you to 100 kph by a few tenths of a second. It would be nice to see what the rpm of both bikes is when cruising at 60 kph to see if there would be a slight loss of city fuel economy with the sliders. Keep in mind also that many of the rest of world Hondas with kph speedos are optimistic by 8% whereas a USA Forza will probably report the speed accurately if they are like the other new Hondas such as the CBR250R and the PCX.
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I would like to see a locked variator power/ torque versus rpm dyno run for the Forza so we would know where the power is and where the best bsfc would be.

[Mario]

Sendler,

I will try to make the video of the 40/60/80/100 km/h gun up's, but I think the numbers will change a lot when the Forza is completely run-in and provided with high-grade synthetic oil.

[Mario]

The JMT 23x18 16g rollers has arrived.

96,33g total, (15,94g min > 16,10g max)


18,0mm


23,1mm

[sendler2112]

Sendler,

I will try to make the video of the 40/60/80/100 km/h gun up's, but I think the numbers will change a lot when the Forza is completely run-in and provided with high-grade synthetic oil.

If 20 kph intervals happen too quickly you can do somthing like 40-80-60-100-80-120. So we can see cruise, acell, and coast down rpms. Also, standing start timed runs always include the big lag in applying full power that is programmed into the fuel computer so a rolling start from 15 or 20 kph can help eliminate this variable from the times. Another good metric I use is to find a steep hill (not many in Netherlands?) for the tests to more clearly show at which rpm the bike is making the best power.

[Mario]

Sendler,

I will try to make the video of the 40/60/80/100 km/h gun up's, but I think the numbers will change a lot when the Forza is completely run-in and provided with high-grade synthetic oil.

If 20 kph intervals happen too quickly you can do somthing like 40-80-60-100-80-120. So we can see cruise, acell, and coast down rpms. Also, standing start timed runs always include the big lag in applying full power that is programmed into the fuel computer so a rolling start from 15 or 20 kph can help eliminate this variable from the times. Another good metric I use is to find a steep hill (not many in Netherlands?) for the tests to more clearly show at which rpm the bike is making the best power.

I will do my best, and no hill's in the neighborhood and very difficult to find a long enough high-way where I can do my thing

What will do a hit clutch with the numbers? and is it recommendable?

[sendler2112]

hit clutch with the numbers? and is it recommendable?

It is a nice quality replacement and comes with different springs to set a higher launch rpm to give you more jump in the first few feet upon take off.

[sendler2112]

http://www.videodoubler.com/combo/saved/1251

Watching the video again I see the rpm change inherent with the sliders that the op is trying to level out by mixing rollers. The take off snaps nicely to 5,500 rpm and then quickly to 6,000 when the ecu lets the power hit, due to the lower starting gear of the sliders and then moves to linger at 6,400 breifly during the transmission process and then drifts up to 6,800 as he has described instead of holding level at 6,400. After which the rpms begin to rise linearly with speed due to the variator being locked out as all CVT's will.