IIHS Study On ABS Brakes On Honda Scooter Motorcycles

[SECoda]

I stumbled across this recent study of ABS brakes on motorcycles and while over all they noted about a 30% reduction in fatal accidental rates (normalized) for ABS equipped bikes the same was NOT true for the mid and large range Honda scooters (Honda Reflex and Honda Silver Wing) interestingly. In fact, over nearly a decade the fatality rate for ABS equipped Silver Wing's was higher than Non-ABS. For the Reflex tested most similar to the Forza the fatality rates were identical between ABS and non-ABS brakes. The change for lighter bikes in general seems to be little to none contrasting the very heavy bikes that had significant rate differences. It puts a little different spin on it.

http://www.iihs.org/frontend/iihs/docum ... hx?id=2042

Honda Reflex 2001-2007
Honda Silver Wing 2003-2010

Non-ABS / ABS
rate per 10,000
Honda Reflex 17 74,506 / 2.3 3 12,876 2.3
Honda Silver Wing 25 46,832 / 5.3 5 8,593 5.8

[sendler2112]

Every study or chart has it's outliers. ABS on motorcycles reduces crashes in bad weather by a large margin.

[SECoda]

Yes generally but not on Honda scooters specifically. These are the facts. It is a large pool of US data.

[sendler2112]

Yes generally but not on Honda scooters specifically. These are the facts. It is a large pool of US data.

It's not because of the ABS. There is some other factor at work.

[SECoda]

The weight/power (this is generally the case for all models in the study) is one of the primary factors at play from the study (even the heavier Silver Wing has a significantly higher fatality rate than the Reflex despite the fact that ABS brakes had no significant effect for each bike) but as you say bad weather is likely one as well. There are many factors at play and they have not identified them in their insurance study. Regardless, it represents reality for the actual the bikes we operate here. I don't like the facts either and more extensive studies are needed. Under certain circumstances I bet ABS brakes may be more effective than not and alter the fatality rate. Generally, though, they don't for our Honda scooters.

[gn2]

Well here's what that report actually says about the efficacy of ABS on motorcycles:

"Conclusions: Further evidence shows that ABS is highly effective in preventing fatal motorcycle crashes."

What you have done is cherry picked the data which supports your argument.
In the table of data you reference, all the other models show a very different trend

[iceman]

Maybe those riding bikes with ABS rely on them too much rather than pay more attention to conditions and traffic than they otherwise would, or for those rides with bikes without ABS.
I would prefer ABS and disc brakes all round on the PCX - but hopefully I would rely on it for emergencies when some idiot pulls our rather than change my cautious approash to the vast number of idiots on the rodes, or for those that just don't care. Unbelievable the amount of tale gating and those doing 50 in 30 roads in London - even in very poor wet conditions.

[SECoda]

I do wish the Forza I just purchased had the ABS option. The dealer that had the only one I could find would not budge on the $6k plus $500 freight fee so the ABS option would have cost me $1700 over what I ended up paying. No where near worth it based on what I know now and how I use the bike and where I live.

As far as the study goes actually cherry-picking is the only reliable way to read the study IMO. Where they tend to get into trouble is making generalities sometimes. I know a little bit about statistics (work related) and the sample sizes are very significant in this study for the Honda scooters. It's hard to buck history. It does make me feel that given I ride mainly in pristine conditions and rural areas the ABS brakes probably would not be as valuable as for someone that rides in dense areas and bad weather with the two Honda scooters I own. If the street is wet I just don't take my bikes out. I drive the 4WD Titanium.

Other factors not identified in the study could be important. One might find out, for example, that all of the fatalities tend to occur in bad weather for Honda scooters (but I doubt it). Or it might relate to the demographics of the owners (older wiser folks tend to buy scooter instead of say sport bikes and drive slower and take less risks). There does seem to be a correlation on weight/power. Higher weight/power correlate to higher fatality rates. This may not always be true model by model as well but it seems to be leaning that direction.

[SECoda]

Oh - based on that study there will be no Triumph Thunderbird's in my future. The fatality rates are pretty significant whether ABS or not but the sample size may be too small. All of the Triumphs look like they need ABS badly. The effect of adding ABS is almost nil on the Honda models overall that they have selected. In fact the fatality rates rise on several models with ABS but probably for other factors again. Interesting. Are Honda owners just a smarter breed? Are all implementations of ABS the same effectiveness? Does the Honda front/rear brake link have any effect? Maybe all Hondas are safer that have that? More studies are needed!

No ABS
ABS
Linked brakes
ABS plus linked brakes

[gn2]

All you are doing is trying to convince yourself that your purchase of a non-ABS Forza was the correct decision.
Put simply, it wasn't.
Every credible study of ABS fitment to roadgoing powered two wheelers clearly shows that ABS is A Good Thing.

The study discussed here is significantly flawed because it is primarily assessing risk to the insurer not risk to the insured.
For the study to be of real value the miles travelled needs to be factored in.

[SECoda]

Well the study is what it is. Miles or hours of operation would be nice but I have not seen that in any of the other ABS studies I have seen. Also, that may be somewhat unimportant when looking say at the Reflex w/ or w/o ABS. I think it would be a stretch to correlate mileage to the purchase of ABS brakes on say a Reflex vs. not but who knows? We are into speculation at that point. I will stay with the facts we have. I still agree that generally ABS brakes help reduce the fatality rate. The problem is with the "generally". It appears that the effect is less significant if at all on lighter scooters for whatever reasons.

[yak]

I have had one chance to test the ABS in my car. A panic stop with full braking. It was intriguing that my mind quickly understood what the ABS was doing. I was able to steer during a severe braking incident.

Any yet i would not pay $400 more for a scooter with ABS. Maybe it is the foolish way that we judge risks in our lives. I know that many people resisted wearing seat belts in the old days (1950's, 1960's). I know that people did not want to pay for air bags. Even when those things were proven to save lives.

[SECoda]

I would have paid the $500 difference alone for the ABS brakes based on MSRP. I am glad to have the linked brakes because I suspect they may be having a positive effect as well (although I see plenty of negative comments on them as well). On our particular scooters the effectiveness of ABS is not so clear.

Don't kill the messenger.

[gn2]

On our particular scooters the effectiveness of ABS is not so clear.

Don't kill the messenger.

The messenger isn't delivering the correct message, he has changed it around to support his own erroneous beliefs.

The white one doesn't have ABS http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LGAuvLP-vxA

[SECoda]

I like that demonstration. My fear is that folks with ABS will venture out when it is wet when those w/o ABS know better. That could be another factor in the actual fatality rates being identical on the Reflex's with and without ABS (this is a fact not an interpretation). Also, the Honda scooters have linked brakes so I suspect the demonstration is again different for the Kymcos in this video than our particular Hondas. The comparison is mixing apples and oranges but it is a positive towards ABS IMO. Making a generality about all motorcycles fatality rates in actually is an extrapolation that may not be true in all cases. In fact, for the Reflexes and Silver Wings in the study, it was not true. Those are the facts.

[gn2]

Every indication is that ABS is an excellent safety feature and is likely to reduce damage and injury, only an imbecile would argue otherwise.

[SECoda]

LOL - well now not every indication according to this study. Generally it does. I work for a large health care insurance firm and I see folks try to gleam hope out of more than statistics can deliver frequently. I think the question is how much more would we pay for ABS brakes and in what circumstances. Hopefully, they will make them standard rather than an option at some point to eliminate the question.

[gn2]

LOL - well now not every indication according to this study

I refer you back to the conclusion of the study.
Maybe try reading it again.

[SECoda]

That is exactly where I started when I saw the numbers for the Honda scooters. "The effectiveness of ABS may vary by motorcycle type, particularly with respect to vehicle dynamics during hard braking (e.g., the likelihood of lifting the rear wheel or even toppling) and on riders' driving habits." It confirms my conclusion. More studies are necessary. I notice you keep ignoring the linked brakes effect.

Someone just pointed out to me that the Kymco tests have the brakes locked which is not necessarily what non-ABS riders should do. The riders should have been instructed to stop using the best method for the bike as configured. Not a bad point. You should not lock car brakes w/o ABS.

[gn2]

ABS will reduce the likelihood of you crashing.
And that's really all there is to it.